Join hosts Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli as they have an enlightening discussion with Dr. Kathleen Fisher from DARPA, exploring groundbreaking advancements at the intersection of AI and cybersecurity, and previewing key highlights of the upcoming Black Hat and DEF CON events. Discover how DARPA's innovative programs and collaborative efforts are revolutionizing the protection of critical infrastructure and national security.
Guest: Dr. Kathleen Fisher, Information Innovation Office (I2O) Director, Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) [@DARPA]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleen-fisher-4000964/
At Black Hat | https://www.blackhat.com/us-24/summit-sessions/schedule/speakers.html#dr-kathleen-fisher-48776
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Hosts:
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martin
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Notes
In this On Location with Sean and Marco episode, hosts Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli engage in an insightful conversation with Dr. Kathleen Fisher from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). The discussion centers around the upcoming Black Hat and DEF CON events, where Dr. Fisher is scheduled to deliver a keynote on the intersection of artificial intelligence (AI) and cybersecurity, with a particular focus on DARPA's ongoing initiatives and competitions.
Dr. Fisher begins by providing an overview of her background and DARPA's mission to prevent technological surprises that could undermine U.S. national security. She recounts the success of the High-Assurance Cyber Military Systems (HACMS) program, which utilized formal methods to create highly secure software for military vehicles. This program demonstrated the potential of formal methods to revolutionize cybersecurity, proving that robust software could be developed to withstand hacking attempts, even from world-class red teams.
The conversation then shifts to the AI Cyber Challenge (AICC) program, a major highlight of her upcoming keynote. AICC aims to leverage the power of AI combined with cyber reasoning systems to automatically find and fix vulnerabilities in real open-source software—an ambitious extension of DARPA's previous Cyber Grand Challenge. This competition involves collaboration with major tech companies like Google, Anthropic, OpenAI, and Microsoft, offering competitors access to state-of-the-art models to tackle real-world vulnerabilities.
Dr. Fisher emphasizes the importance of public-private collaboration in advancing cybersecurity technologies. DARPA's charter allows it to work with a diverse range of organizations, from startups to national labs, in pursuit of strategic technological advances. The episode also touches on the potential impact of cyber vulnerabilities on critical infrastructure, underscoring the need for scalable and automatic solutions to address these threats.
Listeners can anticipate Dr. Fisher highlighting these themes in her keynote, aimed at business leaders, practitioners, policymakers, and risk managers. She will outline how the audience can engage with DARPA's initiatives and contribute to the ongoing efforts to enhance national security through innovative technology solutions.
The episode promises to provide a nuanced understanding of DARPA's role in pioneering AI-driven cybersecurity advancements and offers a preview of the exciting developments to be showcased at Black Hat and DEF CON.
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Resources
Keynote: Enhancing National Security with AI-Driven Cybersecurity: https://www.blackhat.com/us-24/summit-sessions/schedule/index.html#keynote--enhancing-national-security-with-ai-driven-cybersecurity-41250
AI Cyber Challenge: https://aicyberchallenge.com/
DARPA's Information Innovation Office: https://www.darpa.mil/about-us/offices/i2o?ppl=collapse
High-Assurance Cyber Military Systems (HACMS): https://www.darpa.mil/program/high-assurance-cyber-military-systems
DARPAConnect Website: https://pathfinder.theari.us/darpaconnect/home
Learn more about Black Hat USA 2024: https://www.blackhat.com/us-24/
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AI Summit Keynote: Enhancing National Security with AI-Driven Cybersecurity | A Black Hat USA 2024 Conversation with Dr. Kathleen Fisher | On Location Coverage with Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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Sean Martin: [00:00:00] Marco.
Marco Ciappelli: Sean.
Sean Martin: Swoosh swoosh. Or I mean vroom vroom.
Marco Ciappelli: Vroom vroom. Well, you know, it's, uh, it's been a quite interesting, uh, chats on the roads until this point. And I feel like we're almost, almost in Las Vegas, but we haven't left yet because we're actually driving this year. We are actually flying there. And, uh, I believe this is our last pre event Episode.
Sean Martin: So this is the last scheduled one. Yeah, there might be something that comes up, but I all the ones that caught my attention We've had the we've had the great pleasure of chatting with folks and I'm really excited for this one with dr. Kathleen Fisher from DARPA Kathleen thanks for joining us
Kathleen Fisher: My pleasure.
Marco Ciappelli: We left the best for last. No offense to the other, but I was really, really looking forward to this.
Sean Martin: Well, they're all, they're all last until the next last one. So they're all the best along the way.
Marco Ciappelli: I'm okay to say that all the time. All right. That's right.
Sean Martin: I [00:01:00] prompted chat GPT for that response. And I gave it.
Now, so this, uh, This is really cool. So as folks know, if they've been following the coverage or look, look at the blackout schedule, there's an AI summit and, uh, Dr. Fisher is the, the keynote. They're talking about enhanced national security of AI driven cyber security. And. Clearly, this is something important, um, not just for the U.
S., but for our allies and partners and for all the people that, that rely on technology for banking and power and, and water, clean water, everything, right? So, let's, uh, let's start off, maybe, Doctor, if you can maybe share a few words about some of the things you've been involved with over the years and, and, Maybe your view on the importance of this topic.
Now, we can say yesterday was important as well. But what's [00:02:00] going on at the moment.
Kathleen Fisher: Yeah. So my background a little bit. Um, so I first came to DARPA in 2011 and started a program called hackums. which was about could we build software for vehicles that would make it much harder to hack into those vehicles using an approach called formal methods, which at the time everybody thought was really just for toy problems.
But what we showed in hackums was that in fact, you could use formal methods to build software for say helicopter that would make it so that a world class red team couldn't break into the helicopter. So we started out in a quadcopter and at the beginning of the program, The red team showed that they could hack into the quadcopter, no problem.
And that they could hack into a unmanned little bird, which was like a helicopter that was big enough to have two pilots, but could also fly autonomously. No one was surprised that they could hack into the quadcopter. People were pretty surprised that they could hack into the unmanned little bird and take over remote control.
And then. 16 months later, after the formal methods researchers got done, the red team again tried to [00:03:00] talk, hack into the quadcopter and they couldn't do it, which was actually shocking to pretty much everybody, except for the formal methods researchers who knew that their tools had advanced far enough along to be useful for things besides toy problems.
Um, the researchers got to work on the unmanned little bird. And unlike the quadcopter, the unmanned little bird was ITAR restricted and proprietary. So the formal methods researchers couldn't directly work on it. They had to teach the aviation engineers how to use the formal methods tools on the code base of the unmanned little bird.
Um, and at the end of another 16 months, the red team had to do it again and the red team couldn't. Hack them a little bird at that point. Um, at that point, the little bird was on the ground. Um, and they let the red team, um, work on a partition on the little birds. They no longer had to attack from off them a little bird.
They could attack from inside the partition, but they, they, they could crash their own partition, but they couldn't. Crash the rest of the helicopter. Um, at the end of the [00:04:00] program, the red team got to do it again while the quad, while the helicopter was in flight with two test pilots on board, and thankfully that they couldn't crash the helicopter and the test pilots couldn't tell that they were flying a high assurance version of the helicopter instead of the regular version of the helicopter, really demonstrating that formal methods had come a really long way and weren't ready to, um, tackle real militarily relevant systems and that are kind of learned helplessness and software that we don't know how to build software that isn't very hard to hack into is, is wrong that we do know how to build software to a much higher standard of correctness.
Um, so that's some of my background is, is, isn't doing that. Um, and a lot of the same, um, Changes, underlying changes in software and, and computers that underlay that success, that softwares have. Software has, um, or computers have much more memory and are much more powerful. Underlaying, that success in formal methods is what's underlying the success in machine learning, right?
You couldn't have, like, neural nets started out a [00:05:00] long, long, long time ago and, and enjoyed in fact success in the 1980s. But we didn't have enough data. We didn't have enough compute. We didn't have enough memory that now like we do, in fact, and that's leading to the chat GPT algorithmic advances to but a lot of the advances in hardware and software leading into the amazing changes that we saw, um, in with the release of chat GPT, making Uh, bursting on the stage and making everybody aware of, Oh, my God, we have new technology that we need to figure out how to take advantage of the upsides and how to mitigate the threats on the on the downside.
Marco Ciappelli: Incredible. I'm actually reading the singularity is nearer. The updated book from Ray Kurzweil, and it focuses a lot on how it's speeding up the process because of the access to faster computers and computational power. So, um, my brain was already exploding there, but I do know that DARPA has [00:06:00] always been at the forefront for research and technology, you know, the Internet itself, GPS and other innovations.
And so I'm not surprised, obviously, that you guys are looking at. And, and all they can done. So in a, in a nutshell, we're here to tease your, uh, your keynotes at, uh, at BlockCat. What, what are you focusing on, on that presentation? Yeah.
Kathleen Fisher: So one of the key things is the AICC, uh, program competition, which will be highlighted at, at DEF CON.
So AICC is a, is a challenge program. Which is looking at again, this combination of AI and cyber reasoning systems with, can we use that combination of the power of AI systems that we've seen recently with the ability of cyber reasoning systems? So program analysis tools that can look at code to find vulnerabilities.
And the challenge is, can we automatically find and fix vulnerabilities in real open source software? So, [00:07:00] uh, a while ago, maybe 10 years ago, there was the Cyber Grand Challenge, which was, can we, uh, find and fix vul can we find vulnerabilities in synthetic software, software that was just made up for the purpose?
But AICC is, can we find and fix vulnerabilities in real open source software? Um, and we're doing that in partnership with Google, A. I. Anthropic and Microsoft so that the teams that are competing were given access to state of the art models. And, you know, as those models improve, they were able to access those, those state of the art models.
Um, they were five different, um, challenge problem sets. So five different real open source software tools. And each one of those had a whole bunch of problems within them. Uh, instances of the problems where they needed to find vulnerabilities and the competitors, um, got to submit their tools and, uh, the organizers ran the cyber reasoning systems again are running.
It's it's, uh, in the background right now, and we will see the results in the over the course of the competition [00:08:00] at Black Hat, uh, sorry, at DEF CON. In Las Vegas. So we're super excited about that. I think one of the really important things about the competition is it's not just you. Can you find the vulnerabilities?
It's can you find and suggest patches? And that's, you know, taking the difficulty level up another notch. But if you're able to fix them, that's just a huge step forward in being useful. Um, Part of the reason why this is really important is we have a vast amount of sort of technical debt in our, um, our infrastructure.
Like we have many critical infrastructure, um, sectors that are running software that has large amounts of vulnerabilities in them that are accessible to adversaries. We see lots of ransomware that's taking advantage of this and the Um, amount of, of resources that are necessary to go and, and fix those vulnerabilities is enormous.
And, um, if we can find and fix those vulnerabilities at speed and scale [00:09:00] automatically, that would just be a huge, huge game changer. So this competition is kind of the first step of like, is the, is AI technology paired with, um, program analysis kinds of technologies, more old school. Um. Uh, program analysis kind of capabilities.
Is it ready for that kind of challenge of being able to find not just point out the problems like people don't really like it when you're like, You have a problem. You have a problem. You have a problem. Like that's like, Yeah, like I didn't already know I had lots of problems. But if it's like you have a problem and I have a solution like that's a lot.
That's a lot more helpful. Even if somebody has to go and look and check, it's still very helpful
Marco Ciappelli: for sure. And you mentioned the collaboration with companies that are commercial entity so that there is that it. And I think for many years, many conferences, we hear how important it is that the government and collaborate with the commercial.
So we are there. I think we're happy to see that. And can you highlight that in how [00:10:00] it does accelerate the progress in what we're trying to do?
Kathleen Fisher: 100%. Yes, it's one of DARPA's, um, superpowers. So in fact, DARPA's founding charter, uh, like DARPA was founded after the Sputnik satellite launch, uh, to have it so that the US government was never again taken by surprise, right?
We're supposed to be detecting and creating strategic surprise. The founding document of DARPA is actually like a page and a half. It's really, really short. It's like amazing that the government can actually do something in a page and a half. Something as substantial as DARPA in a page and a half. And what that founding document actually, all it really does is give DARPA the ability to contract with organizations.
And it gives us the ability to contract with national labs, with companies, big companies, with small companies, with universities. Basically, it gives us the ability to go and make deals with All sorts of different kinds of organizations in order to create new capabilities, new technology for strategic surprise.
And so that's what DARPA does. We go and work with universities. We go with work, work with big companies. We [00:11:00] work with small companies, with startups, with national labs in order to create new technologies. And so that's an example of what we're doing here with AICC. We're working with MSWordDoc Google, Anthropic, OpenAI, and Microsoft.
We're also working with the open source software foundation. They are helping the competitors make it so that when they find a patch, they have it in the right format so that, um, that patch could easily fit into the pipeline of actually going and being applied to software to get it fixed. Since the open source software foundation manages the patch process for many, much of the open source that is run in the, um, um, In the U S and in fact, the, in the world, um, and then the P the competitors, the competitors themselves, there are teams that are formed from universities or teams that are formed from companies, big companies and small companies.
Um, in order, um, there was a, another sub competition that was for small companies to be able to write papers about their solutions, um, uh, to give, to get a [00:12:00] million dollars for the best. The seven teams got a million dollars of prizes, um, for the best, uh, Prize the best concepts towards the competition as well.
Um, so, uh, the DARPA ecosystem. is very broad and it's different kinds of, of, um, participants because it is the, you know, the best, we're basically, we're always looking for the best ideas and the best people to be able to create the new technology for strategic surprise, whether that best idea is coming from a big company, a small company, a startup, an academic institution, or a national lab kind
Sean Martin: So I love to hear that you're You're working with open SSF.
I had a, I had a great chat with that team as well. And, uh, they're doing amazing, amazing work. And then you talked about the breath and I want to ask you about kind of the depth because there's, there's. Well, firmware and maybe even chip level analysis up to, I'll say the cloud, right, [00:13:00] where stuff, stuff runs across multiple systems that isn't on premises necessarily.
So can you speak to that? And then also the, um, yeah, how, because AI crosses all of that, you have to look at things differently versus a, a segment at a time, like maybe you had to in the past. Okay.
Kathleen Fisher: For sure. So the, the AICC program is focused on the software piece, but DARPA has other efforts that are focused, um, more broadly across the, the stack.
So the hardened program, for example, is looking across the entire stack for looking for where abstraction boundaries, um, uh, are, are, um, not perfect. And where, uh, there's like a weird machine that is formed by violations in the abstraction boundary and that given an attacker in a way to. Break in and, and make the machine do what the attacker wants, as opposed to what the legitimate owner of a system wants [00:14:00] by, um, thinking across abstraction boundaries.
Um, so, uh, so that program is exactly looking at exactly what is focused on exactly the problem that you are focused on. Um, I think one of the challenges in creating a DARPA program is, or one of the things that we think about when we create a DARPA program is what is the, um, The scope of the program.
How do you chew off or bite off just the right level of thing to to be ambitious enough, but not too ambitious, right? If you like the Hackem's program that I was describing earlier about hacking a helicopter, we assumed the hardware was correct, not because we thought the hardware was correct. Obviously, the hardware is not correct.
But if you Take up too much, then you don't solve any problem. But if you take up too small a thing that it's not, it's not, you're not pervade. You're not making an advance that is useful to anybody. So, um, with the example of a ICC focusing on software, but hardened focusing across the stacks where we're trying to make sure that we're making progress in all of the relevant, uh, [00:15:00] technical areas.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, you know, I love that because I think in general, The larger society start listening and understanding, understanding maybe too much, but you know, at least hearing about a I think when it started to get applied to the self driving car and you know, the competition that were held in the desert with the universities and there, as you said, it was like a very specific.
Go bring the car from point A to point Z, wherever it is. And let's see who can do it. And people really can. I love the idea of You need a box in order to think outside the box so constraint can Make you very, very creative in in general.
Kathleen Fisher: Indeed. I think having like a compelling narrative can be super, super powerful.
We've been trying. One of the things we've been trying to do is like the Hackems program that I told you that demonstrated that formal methods were ready for prime time. Darpa's had maybe. Eight or nine more programs after that, [00:16:00] working on specific pieces. Um, and we've successfully transitioned parts of those technology to specific programs of record specific systems in the military.
So far, we haven't seen widespread adoption, maybe other than Amazon Web Services, which are using formal methods like. Many, many places. So it sort of feels like Amazon web services got the full message, but kind of the rest of industry is still only like drinking little pieces of the Kool Aid as opposed to like drinking the whole jug and given the world that we're living in, it feels like we need much broader adoption, um, because of things like volt typhoon.
Um, and so how do we accelerate that, that broader adoption and, um, It could be that we like we need a more compelling demonstration. I think back to the work of Stefan Savage and Yoshikono where they demonstrated kind of in a lab that you could remotely hack into a car and they did it, you know, in a lab and very safely and they did responsible disclosure.
Um, and then I think about the work that other people did hacking into a car [00:17:00] on a highway with a reporter and it was highlighted in Wired magazine and there was a picture of a jeep in a ditch. And that got cars recalled and got way, way more attention. Like, it didn't scientifically show anything that Stefan Savage and Yoshikono's work didn't show.
But in some sense, it had more of an impact. And like, there's tons of reports that show that, um, Like, you can make an airplane fall out of the sky with a cyber attack, for example, but people don't believe that. So, like, maybe if we, like, did a demonstration that showed that you could take a mothballed airplane and, you know, that maybe that would make people, like, more, more adopt cyber, like, be, have it, Prioritize in a higher way, adopting techniques that would make it so that, um, in terms of like, we can't afford to adopt these techniques.
No, you can't afford not to adopt these techniques. Um, and it's that narrative, it's that demonstration that is compelling and it's, it's figuring out what's the right size problem to adopt and [00:18:00] what's the right demonstration and what's the right narrative to convince people. And that's part of like AICC, we have the, you know, we have The, the cyber, the, the town, the city that we're building in the convention center in Las Vegas, part of the city is there to show the results of the teams that are competing to show how they are doing and to give us a platform for demonstrate for announcing who the winners are.
But another, the reason it's a city is to show the infrastructure and to have people who are attending, be able to see how cyber runs the city, right. And to show the effects of cyber attacks on the city so that people have who attend have a visceral understanding of Oh, cyber. It's not just about like cyber attacks.
It's not just about ransomware. It's not just about my data being stolen. It could shut down a hospital. It could shut down like the water systems. It could like, we, it's not just a nice to have, it's an essential thing. And so like the goal [00:19:00] of the, the city is twofold, right? It's, it's about showing the, how the competition is running, but it's also about.
Creating this visceral understanding of how important cyberinfrastructure is and how important having that cyberinfrastructure be, um, to pay down the technical debt that is currently really, really high in our cyberinfrastructure, which is a message we're hearing all the time from CISA, from the White House, et cetera.
Uh, but. By telling it in a, in a narrative viscerally compelling way. Hopefully driving that home in a way that is more impactful.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, hopefully we wouldn't have to shut to put down an airplane to, to prove that, but, you know, a certain point. So we shut down with airplane with people a certain point. Just trust us, right?
we know who's gonna volunteer what we're talking about.
Kathleen Fisher: We were thinking about like, you know, those mothballed airplanes that are just sitting out in the desert. Perhaps they could, you know, do one last piece of service.
Sean Martin: [00:20:00] I drive by those quite often. And I often wonder what they are. What, what will, what will become of them or what will come of them?
Uh, now I know, now I know.
Kathleen Fisher: Just a thought experiment to be clear.
Sean Martin: Exactly, exactly. So I want to kind of give folks a sense of what they might hear. So don't, I don't want to, I don't want to share anything that would prevent somebody from coming to see you keynote, but who are you speaking to during this keynote session?
Is it business leaders? Is it practitioners, policymakers, risk managers? Who is it you're speaking to? What can they expect to hear from you?
Kathleen Fisher: Yeah, that, I mean, that combination of people, people who want to understand a little bit about how DARPA works and why DARPA is doing what it's doing in this area of, uh, cyber and AI, why it's really important that DARPA works in the [00:21:00] combination of cyber and AI contextualize a little bit to the state of the world.
Um, and the state of technology right now, uh, hopefully accessible to audience that isn't super technical. Um, so I won't be going into the weeds, um, very much, not any more than the weeds that I already have here. So if you've understood what I've said today, you should be able to understand what I'm saying, uh, in the keynote.
Sean Martin: And I know one of the, one of the points is to reinforce and reinvigorate and. And yeah, I drive better outcomes through public private, uh, collaboration. So, will you be able to share how businesses can get involved and, and how individuals can get involved and what they can expect from DARPA and what DARPA needs from them?
Kathleen Fisher: Uh, in, indeed, that's not a secret. That's a message that I'm happy to, to say, uh, Whenever, right? Uh, I mean, the most involvement is DARPA is always hiring program [00:22:00] managers. Um, we have about 23 or so in I2O and a quarter of DARPA, everybody who has decision authority at DARPA, uh, is a term, uh, temporary employee.
You serve about four years. So that means DARPA is kind of hiring a quarter of the program managers every year. So, uh, it's an amazing job and the best job I've ever had, more or less. So, uh, that there's that possibility. Of course, it's not very many people. Um, DARPA has, um, all of the technical work is done by, we call them performers, people who respond to calls for participation in the program.
So things like Hardin and Hackams and AICC, well, AICC is a competition, so it's a little bit different, but Hardin and Hackams, those two programs I talked about, those were, um, A call was put out a B. A. A. And people responded by writing proposals and some of those were selected. So looking for calls and then responding is a is another good way to participate in as a DARPA in DARPA's efforts.
Um, and there's DARPA Connect, which is, um, a way to [00:23:00] find out more about DARPA and how to get involved. Those are resources that are online all the time. So people who have questions and are curious about DARPA, I would encourage to go search online for DARPA Connect and go find those resources. There's things like the High Elmira Catechism, which is sort of the, um, the way by which DARPA programs get started.
So go find those questions and think about them.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, I think DARPA is It's just cool. I mean, I'm a big fan of all the Apollo program and Mercury, all the, you know, the history of NASA and, you know, you mentioned the Sputnik and DARPA start, you know, rolling the sleeves and inventing stuff and researching back in those days.
So always amazing. The talk, uh, will be Tuesday, August 6th, 1140 am to 1205, exactly pm you cannot go longer than that, I guess, and the South Pacific F level zero. And I encourage everybody to, to go and, and learn more about, uh, what Kathleen [00:24:00] Fisher, uh, tease it us here today. And, uh, Sean, we will be there.
And I am very, very excited for all that has to come at Black Hat.
Sean Martin: I know, I know. Great, uh, a great summit, uh, ahead for sure. And I'm, I'm excited to hear about future challenges and, and hopefully some off options for a solutions as well. Uh, a lot, a lot to, uh, a lot to chew on when it comes to AI. So, uh, I'm, I'm excited to hear what you have to say and, uh, hopefully have a good, good turnout and good engagement from folks.
And good results coming out of, out of BlackHat and DEF CON, both the, uh, the talk, the summits and, and the competitions as well.
Kathleen Fisher: Definitely looking forward to seeing the results of the competition.
Marco Ciappelli: We all are. And for everybody else, either you can make it to Las Vegas or not, we're going to try to bring, uh, BlackHat to you as we've been trying to tease you about it.
And definitely we'll report [00:25:00] on what we see there and the other conversation that we're going to have. So Kathleen, thank you so much for your time. And thank. Everybody for listening and watching us if that's what you like to do. Thank you very much.
Kathleen Fisher: Thank you
Sean Martin: Thank you