Join us for an insightful talk with Jacqueline Jayne about the vital role of human behavior in cybersecurity, where she shares strategies on reducing human error and educating digital citizens from an early age. Learn how AI can assist in real-time threat detection while addressing the global challenge of maintaining online safety.
Guest: Jacqueline Jayne, The Independent Cybersecurity Expert
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacquelinejayne/
At AU Cyber Con | https://melbourne2024.cyberconference.com.au/speakers/jacqueline-jayne-smict
Hosts:
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martin
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Notes
During the On Location series at AISA Cyber Con 2024 in Melbourne, the conversation about cybersecurity turns engaging as Jacqueline Jayne, Security Awareness Advocate, shares her experience on human risk management and cybersecurity education. Her insights bring forward crucial points on bridging the gap between human behavior and technological security measures.
One pivotal topic discussed is the persistent challenge of human error in cybersecurity. Jacqueline highlights that human error now accounts for over 90% of security breaches. The approach to mitigating these risks isn't merely technological but educational. She emphasizes the need for comprehensive security awareness training and shifting organizational culture towards proactive risk management.
Jacqueline shares, “Organizations should redefine IT departments from the ‘Department of No’ to the ‘Department of K-N-O-W.’” She believes that instead of restricting users, organizations should focus on empowering them with knowledge, emphasizing the importance of comprehensive training that connects with employees on a personal level.
Throughout the conversation, the importance of contextual and relatable education stands out. Jacqueline advocates for simulated phishing campaigns to provide real-world scenarios for employees. By understanding and experiencing what a phishing attempt looks like in a controlled environment, employees can better recognize and react to actual threats.
Another compelling point is teaching digital citizenship from a young age. Jacqueline compares cybersecurity education to road safety education. Just as children learn road safety progressively, digital safety should be ingrained from an early age. Appropriate and guided exposure to technology can ensure they grow up as responsible digital citizens.
The discussion also touches on parental and organizational roles. Jacqueline discusses the proposal of banning social media for children under 16, acknowledging its complexity. She suggests that though banning might seem straightforward, it's more about educating and guiding children and teenagers on safe digital practices. Organizations and parents alike should collaborate to create a safer and more informed digital environment for the younger generation.
Towards the end, the dialogue shifts to the potential role of AI in enhancing cybersecurity awareness. There’s a consensus on using AI not as a replacement but as an augmentative tool to alert and educate users about potential threats in real-time, potentially mitigating the risk of human error. In conclusion, the conversation highlights the indispensable role of education in cybersecurity. JJ's perspective fosters a comprehensive approach that includes organizational culture change, continuous engagement, and early digital citizenship education. It’s not just about implementing technology but evolving our collective behavior and mindset to ensure a secure digital future.
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This Episode’s Sponsors
Threatlocker: https://itspm.ag/threatlocker-r974
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Resources
The top 10 skills your security awareness and culture person must have with no IT or cyber skills in sight (Session): https://melbourne2024.cyberconference.com.au/sessions/session-OZ4j4mTr1O
Keeping our kids safe online: The essential information for parents and caregivers (Session): https://melbourne2024.cyberconference.com.au/sessions/session-oBf7Gjn2xG
Security awareness 2.0: The paradigm shift from training and simulations to engagement and culture: https://melbourne2024.cyberconference.com.au/sessions/session-drDWsOKBsL
Learn more and catch more stories from Australian Cyber Conference 2024 coverage: https://www.itspmagazine.com/australian-cyber-conference-melbourne-2024-cybersecurity-event-coverage-in-australia
Be sure to share and subscribe!
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Balancing Technology and Human Awareness in Cyber Defense: Strategies for Families and Organizations | An Australian Cyber Conference 2024 in Melbourne Conversation with Jacqueline Jayne | On Location Coverage with Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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Marco Ciappelli: [00:00:00] All right. Sean. Margo. Sean. Here we are. I know. I'm excited. Somewhere in a room. Somewhere in a sunny, we don't know what is outside, but Melbourne, I've been told, is the city of the Four Seasons. Are you the
Sean Martin: Wonderful Wizard?
It is.
Marco Ciappelli: Is that true?
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: It is true. Melbourne is. So far,
Marco Ciappelli: I have to say, it is true. I've experienced it. Really hot. Muggy. I've Rainy,
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: cold, windy.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, coming from LA, it's refreshing, you know. It's not boring. Not boring.
Sean Martin: From one season to four seasons. When you
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: pack for Melbourne, it's not boring. It's three suitcases.
No, not really. It's not three.
Sean Martin: I have this one to carry on, which is, uh, quite challenging.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Yes, it would be.
Sean Martin: But, uh, for a month here. But anyway.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Well.
Sean Martin: Um, we're here for a few days. We are. For the AISA, uh, cyber conference. A lot of great topics, a lot of great folks, uh, that we're meeting, one of which is JJ.
Thank you so much for taking the time. And three sessions you have. I have [00:01:00] three sessions. You're keeping busy. Yes.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: There's something like over 500 speakers at the conference this year. That's incredible. Yeah. And a nice
Marco Ciappelli: amount of, uh, of, uh, participants. Absolutely. So. I
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: think they're looking at over 5, 000.
Yeah. That's, that's exciting. All over, I believe. A lot of handshakes. Fist
Marco Ciappelli: bumps. That is a lot. Yeah. A lot of selfies. We'll have to do one. We should remember to do that. Yes. So, uh, Sean. I'm gonna I'm gonna take the lead here because I'm excited. This is more in my corner here. It's the human element of cyber security.
So, you know, it's the two of us. He can participate. You can participate. You can participate. So I remember the time when I started. started to be in the industry because of this guy, which has been in the cyber security industry for, I don't know, before it was even cool.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Wow.
Marco Ciappelli: So that's a long time ago.
That's a long time ago. Because now it's really cool to be in cyber security. You're
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: looking good.
Marco Ciappelli: And, uh, and we were looking at things and me coming from sociology, political science, I'm like, okay, this is great, [00:02:00] but this is not just IT. And then slowly, but surely, the human element, the human element, and that's what the three sessions you're presenting are about.
So tell us a little bit about you and the sessions.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Well, that's a big question to answer.
Marco Ciappelli: You don't have to go that far.
Sean Martin: I like to start from where I was hatched. I was
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: born, yes, we won't do that. Um, so yeah, Jacqueline Jane, JJ. Um, my history or my career into IT and cyber was a little bit different than most.
Um, I've worked and worn many hats in different industries. and business units, learning about all sorts of things, which helps me, I think, now to understand more that human element and how it relates to cyber and how to actually engage people correctly, um, to understand what's going on. So I found myself that conduit between people and technology.
So helping the everyday person understand the challenges that [00:03:00] IT face, because they are known as the Department of No, which isn't fair. Um, I've changed that to the Department of No. K N O W, because they actually do know. Um, and the human side has needs that IT don't seem to quite understand. So there's always this head butting that occurs.
And about seven years ago, I found myself in a situation to educate people on cyber security. I went down quite a rabbit hole, and discovered that the human element, or the human risk factor, is huge. Um, at that time it was around 70 percent and that was 2017 ish, and now we're at over 90 percent human error.
So things aren't working as we would have hoped, and I think it's because the sophistication of cybercriminals. They've really put the foot down, and we as humans, we respond to the emotional things that cybercriminals do so well. So my focus is to look at [00:04:00] two sides. What's happening in that Human Risk Management perspective with security awareness training, security culture, behavior change there, as well as the general public who have no idea about these things.
Um, basic cyber hygiene doesn't exist, so I work between both. And my three sessions here at CYBACON there's one I have today with the wonderful Daisy Wong, who you will be finding more about this later. Um, and we're talking about the skills required for that. for people in organizations to run successful human risk management programs, and cyber and IT aren't on the top ten list.
There's a whole lot of other skills there. And then I have a session on keeping our kids safe online, the ultimate guide for parents. Very topical, um, our kids are experiencing all sorts of wonderful and terrible things online. And my third session is actually talking about the paradigm shift. from security awareness training and phishing to that culture change and [00:05:00] engagement.
So as we move through the paradigm to where we are now for human risk management. Bit about me and what I'm doing here at CyberCon.
Sean Martin: That's great. Can I ask the first question? Oh yeah, go for it. Um, one of the reasons we like to be here is because of the regional, national differences in culture. You mentioned the word culture, which can be in family culture or business culture, but there's an international culture and differences between regions.
How much, and I ask this question first because it probably sets the stage for everything else you're talking about, how much of the global view do you have in terms of kids and online safety? Businesses and human risk management and how culture changes. Are you primarily focused in Australia and APJ or do you get a view broader?
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Good question. Um, it is a global view. There is nothing different. There are nuances, absolutely, within organizations. It might be more compliance based [00:06:00] and more willing to do what they're requested to do. Um, but what I find is the human error, the human element in organizations globally is the same. It's not that there's one country or one area who are doing it better than others.
Right. Um, and from the individual point of view with the kids online, even the, the social media bands that are being talked about at the moment here in Australia, it's global. The same conversations happening in the UK and America and other parts of the world. So the issues are the same. They might have slight differences depending on where you are.
Um, and the added complexity is it's global West connected hyper connectivity. So there's no boundaries. There's no.
Marco Ciappelli: And that's, you know, something that I like to look at, because, uh, you know, we still have a prehistoric brain. We react. When you [00:07:00] look at social engineering, is that sense of urgence, like panicking. I mean, I still get excited about the Spanish prisoner letter, right, when I get a letter like that. Oh, the Nigerian.
Oh, the Nigerian. I have to walk him off. I got the letter. The point is that, yeah, we're still there. We're still playing with emotion, just at a much larger scale.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: We are.
Marco Ciappelli: Right? So that letter is not a hundred letters, it's thousands and millions, and now we got AI and all of that, so. Yes. Technology is not the excuse anymore.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: I
Marco Ciappelli: mean, we need to think human.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: We do. Interesting story, quick story. There's a tax scam that goes around every year here in Australia. So the Australian Tax Office is our governing body here. And a scam comes out every year on the phone. Recorded message, Australian accent, so it sounds absolutely perfect.
Telling the person that they've done the wrong thing with their taxes and they're going to be [00:08:00] arrested, like there's financial issues. Panic. And press one to talk to someone. Now, a couple of years ago, I was actually writing an article and going through the transcription of this scam. And I got a phone call and it was the scam.
So, my brain
My brain knows 100 percent this is a scam, but the language used, my body had a visceral reaction to that fear. And I sat there thinking, my goodness, this is not about understanding things. This is so much deeper than that. My body was, I'm going to be arrested. My brain was like, this is a scam.
Even you
Sean Martin: describing it, I feel a little bit, seriously.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: It's the natural responses we have as humans, and that's why human error is where it's at, because other criminals use that.
Marco Ciappelli: It was really
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: interesting.
Marco Ciappelli: So is it a cultural change that we need to, I mean, do we need to mature into living with technology because we're, maybe it happened a little too quick?
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: I think, [00:09:00] I use analogies a lot, and one analogy I use is road safety. When we're little, we are taught road safety based on our experience of the road. So we might be on our little bicycles or the bikes with no wheels and then we're taught that road safety as we grow up older, holding hands, crossing the road.
We're taught that. It becomes part of what we do. It's sort of a part of our DNA. road safety and then when we get our license it's another element we need to learn and there's always learning and responsibility and everyone's involved. With cyber security and technology as it is, that hasn't happened.
It's been really fast and I think we're two generations away from kids coming into the world with parents or carers who can give them that, okay, okay. So we're not giving you a smartphone at a young age. We're giving you a dumb phone. So dumb and smart that just does calls and text messages for communication.
But at school, we hope you can learn [00:10:00] how to be a good digital citizen. And we don't have that at the moment. So kids are having issues online. And so are adults. Same problems. It's an awareness. Education needs to be in schools, age appropriate usage for devices all through university. This is not something you just learn.
Marco Ciappelli: And it take, it takes a while. Then you get to the car, but just start with your roller blades and your bike. And you know, and now you're just like, Hey, here.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Travel the world.
Marco Ciappelli: Take a car. Go.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Yeah. Well, I have a 18 year old. And I did not give him the keys at 16 to the car and say, off you go, drive safe.
Marco Ciappelli: Exactly.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: He had to study for his learners. He had to go through the whole process and, you know, that first time driving. I don't know if you can remember that. I do. Oh my goodness. I'm never going to get this. And you eventually do. And they do. But you still have to look after your car. You still have to think about what you're doing.
Pay attention.
Sean Martin: Mm [00:11:00] hmm. So. Let's talk about that a little bit. Thinking. Because when you just described kind of the Yeah. You get the feeling. Oftentimes you don't think. And I was doing some trick or treating and crossing the street with the kids. It was easy to just cross. And not think, and I paused for a moment and said, let's look both ways.
Correct.
And it would be easy to take it for granted that, I don't know why the child would know, but to look both ways because that's obvious. I'm just wondering, so, do we, Are we finding ourselves in a place where we take things for granted, where we think kids will know because they should know, because it makes sense, common sense?
And, I don't know, it's that whole process. Yeah, it's,
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: what I find is people in the industry, people in IT, technology, cyber, in that space, there's an assumed knowledge that comes with it. And that is not everybody else's assumed [00:12:00] knowledge. It just isn't. Um, people don't understand that Microsoft will never call you at home.
That should be a given that everyone in this world knows. Or your bank. Or your bank. So, if you get an incoming bit of communication asking you for, um, Personal identifiable information, paying a bill, threatening you with something, that should be a thank you for the call goodbye. It isn't. It's not a habit yet.
So I think there's a misconception of what people, general population outside of our world, know about technology and IT. Um, most of them don't know how to use a
printer. And
I say that with respect. If you are not in at all, I read the manual that comes with every device. I'm that one person. When
Marco Ciappelli: you get the manual.
Yeah. Because now stuff gets without manual. But I
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: go online, download the PDF. Yeah, that's right. And sometimes I'll print it out.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, you're definitely a hacking kind of person.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: It's just, however, people know that so they'll ring me and say, hey, how do I do this? Right,
Marco Ciappelli: [00:13:00] yeah.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: And one thing I say to people for computers is read the screen.
It's all just look.
Yeah.
But that curiosity and that element isn't there. Technology and online experience. so unique. And these devices give us access to so, so much. And our kids inadvertently find things. Um, they, they're shown things. It's so easy to pick up and just show you something that you're not prepared for.
How do you control that? It's an awareness. It's a, It's uh, how do we get kids to become good digital citizens and understand that digital footprint. Um, sharing information, it's there forever. They don't care until they're in their thirties or thinking maybe I shouldn't have done this.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, right.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Because there's no evidence of our time online.
That's, you know,
Sean Martin: I want to go to, you said, read what's on the screen.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Yeah.
Sean Martin: So you mentioned I've been in this space for a long time. When I was building products at Symantec, we actually did a bunch of [00:14:00] focus groups for user centered design and looking at how people, consumers, interacted with antivirus software.
Do you alert them? Do you hide the alerts? And so I use that as an example often to say the ultimate goal was to inform them that they were protected, but not overwhelm them with information so that they have to worry about that they can get to what they're most interested in working on on the computer.
I think to some degree that's a disservice. And if we look at, you know, Just like the smartphone or computers or even cars, a lot of stuff is happening behind the scenes. We have no idea how or why it does it. Is it doing it for us or against us? Are we doing it in a way that it impacts us from a privacy perspective or safety perspective?
So there's so much hidden. And not a lot is on the screen or displayed to us anymore. How do we kind of wrangle with that to educate and bring knowledge to be, so we're informed so we can [00:15:00] make wise decisions versus doing everything for us and hope. That's a
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: 64 million dollar question. Although, here's, you remember the day of Clippy?
Clippy would pop up. Do you need help? Clippy. Clippy? Still around. Yeah. Made a big, like, we had the resurgence of the AI right now. It's hilarious. I'm a mad
Marco Ciappelli: guy, so I don't know. Okay. I haven't seen it.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: I'm on the Mac now too, and I really do enjoy it. It's, we think about the nudge theory of letting people know, like, there's a bin around the corner, don't drop your rubbish, for example.
So it's like, oh, okay. However, we know not to litter. We know those things. The complexity we have with online safety, and let's think about cyber security and emails, which is a big problem. So how does, you open that email, how do you know what to do? At the moment, the nudge theory, the nudge of, hey, should you click that?
Do you really want to do that? That's one element to look at, whilst at the same time educating people to spot [00:16:00] those red flags. We're not at a point where we are with antivirus now. People know they have to have it. Like, for me, I have it, and I know what it does, and I get prompted, Databases are out of date.
So that, to me, that's the most important thing I need to make sure, that the databases are up to date. So I will stop what I'm doing and update, because I know that's important. Many people think antivirus will help you with phishing emails too. They don't understand it's only the known stuff, and the updates is the new stuff.
that's come in. So it's, once people know, they can accept what they have to do. For the cyber for phishing, we're so far away from that. We have to come at it from an education point of view, from a simulated phishing campaigns perspective, to help people understand what they're seeing. Um, give people like example after example to say, is this real?
Or phishing in a safe environment? Because you can't learn piano without [00:17:00] playing it. I can read music, but if I'm not actually on the piano, I can't play. Correct, yeah. Technically you can play. Concert level,
no.
And that's the frustration within the industry, that's what I'm seeing. perception that we just educate people and say, don't click on suspicious links.
But people don't know what a suspicious link is,
Marco Ciappelli: right?
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: And there's the problem. So you say just hover over the link. Do you know how many people will say to me, what does hover over a link mean? And you think, oh, really? But that's the assumed. A link's this
Sean Martin: long.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Or it's been shortened. Well,
Marco Ciappelli: you know, it's like you bring the example of music.
It's like, you know, just play this chord. Somebody's going to be like, huh? That's the C chord. What you mean, right? That's Yeah, but if you, if you're not a musician, if you're not the technology expert, the cyber security is not coming like that.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Correct. You need to go back to basics. And
Marco Ciappelli: sometimes you [00:18:00] need to make mistakes in order to,
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: to
Marco Ciappelli: learn, but we don't even allow people to make mistakes.
And like you're on a simulation because it's too risky. I mean, you're getting fined. So,
Sean Martin: I know a C chord on the trumpet. I know a C chord on the piano. I'm learning the C chord on the guitar. Yeah. But you need to practice
Marco Ciappelli: that so you do it, right? Very different.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: And when you first start, um, I mean, my son plays piano, and he's just sort of learning and transitioning into guitar.
And he's, um, Tears from Heaven is something he's playing at the moment, that beginning part where it's really, yeah.
Mm hmm.
And the first few days Because he's quite talented at playing music. The first few days it was all over the place and I was getting really frustrated. After a week, that first was just like
Yeah.
But it wasn't like that in the beginning. He's got the rest of the song to learn, for goodness sake, you know. It's, and in, I think for technology, one thing I say, two [00:19:00] things, three things, a lot of things I say. Humans aren't born secure and we cannot be patched. And that's the approach from IT in general.
We'll just patch them. No. We'll just throw more technology. No. It's the big problem that we have. So it's breaking it down to educate people to be suspicious and cautious and cautious. all the time. So if you don't expect something in don't interact with it until you've had a second or third checking point.
Marco Ciappelli: I think what you said at the beginning, it's kind of like the teaching kids how to behave in the street on the road, right? You get to a point that when you get to the street, you look left and right. Even if it's a one way street, you're still going to do it left and right because it's a habit. It's, it's, it's a muscle, muscle, muscle memory.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: And it's different when you come to the other side of the country, you have to switch that around.
Marco Ciappelli: Yep. Because the cars
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: are coming
Marco Ciappelli: in a different way. Oh, I've been honking the UK many times. [00:20:00]
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: There you
Marco Ciappelli: go. But this, we're going somewhere, I think. And I like that. To look at a little bit into the future, maybe as we start wrapping here, because when you get the alert for from the malware and say, Hey, we need to do an update or you get like the fun as a security update, jump on it, do it.
I can see how a I It could help contextualize in an email, could become that pop up and say, Hmm, this email
is
starting to get suspicious to me. Think about it. I'm not saying it is, just make your decision, but there is an alert.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: So
Marco Ciappelli: do we look again, we go back into technology as the easy button, maybe?
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: It certainly will.
When I, I, I, I spent around. Like I said, with Clippy, with Grammarly, AI has been around for years. QR codes have been around for years, but they just went poof over the pandemic. Now, when we think about, um, AI, as much as we are using it for [00:21:00] good, cyber criminals are using it for their nefarious activities as well.
So when they do things, we do things to try and combat it. The under or the overarching or underlying, uh, whichever way you Us as humans, we just need an extra layer of being more aware than ever with the deepfake calls that are happening now. To take someone's voice and ring grandma or auntie and say, Look, you know, grandma, I'm in jail.
My lawyer needs 5, 000. He'll ring you. And it sounds exactly like that person. People need a code word now within their families. So it's the only way to combat it is to say, well, what's the code word?
Sean Martin: Do you want it? I'll tell you.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Don't tell me the code word. When, that's the difference. But the hardest part is, back to my story before about having that visceral feeling.
Even if you don't get the code word, it's your grandson or granddaughter you're talking to. And you have to hang up.
[00:22:00] Um,
but then you have to make calls straight away to what's going on. So it's, when new things occur, we have to always find ways to combat it. Um, and the difference with social media is Cyber is, it's something new every day.
That's the complexity. Think about, um, work health safety. There's not many new spills that happen that you need to clean up or, like, it's a, it's a compliance based reminder. Cyber is all the time. So it's, uh, something we need to, like, road safety, sun safety, stop, drop, and roll with, with, uh, when fires. It's got to be here for people to think, hold on.
I shouldn't click, I shouldn't engage, I should hang up, pay attention. It's really challenging for all of us.
Marco Ciappelli: I want to take a minute for your opinion. We talked a little bit about this before we started about, I heard about this law that they're working on in Australia in terms of like limiting social media to under 16 years old.
Your [00:23:00] opinion. My opinion. I know you have opinions. I
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: have an opinion. Um, there's, it's twofold. It's an incredibly, incredibly complex, um, uh, an issue where there are two sides to this, both of which are right. We think about parents and families who have unfortunately experienced probably the greatest losses of their lives with their children deciding to end their lives as a result of bullying.
Uh, that is, you can't argue with that. That something needs to be done in social media. to protect our children and do more in that space. So there's 100 percent support for the ban on that group, which I respect 100%. The other side of it is, our children and our teenagers, our kids, are using social media to connect with their whole world.
It is everything they do, they don't even text, they message. Um, and we've allowed this to happen as a society. It's not a parent's fault, it's a society issue. Um, where any kid can open an account, three or [00:24:00] four, on any social media platform and no one can stop them. They can say they're 18 or not. Because we will find a way around whatever we want to do.
Banning something is not the answer. It is certainly, a topic that must be discussed, but again, I come back to education and awareness, teaching kids at school. So we can't fence the ocean, you know, the horses bolted, the gates open, all of the things you could imagine, but we still need to look after the kids who are using social media now and the children who are coming up to that age group where, you know, usually it's 13.
That's the age group. That's the age the platforms say you can join, um, but in my opinion, the kids should not have smart phones until they're 13. There's no need for it, but if we change that tomorrow and took away smart phones from every child under 13, it would be really, really challenging. Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, [00:25:00] Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um Try and ban, because if it's successful, kids will still find a way around.
Can you buy me a phone? Can you buy me a phone?
Sean Martin: It's like buying a drink.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Buying a drink, buying cigarettes, you know, vapes are banned here. Is it all vaping? It's very complex. Um, actually, a dear friend of mine said it's a wicked problem because it is so complex. It covers so many different areas. It's intricate.
There's no right or wrong. Um, the conversation is now heated up to a point of debate and it's polarizing. Teenagers themselves aren't being heard. Um, and professionals on both sides of this debate. that area, um, aren't getting that equal share, um, of [00:26:00] the, the soundbites, I suppose is the term to call it.
But, but you
Marco Ciappelli: know, uh, so I'm going to let you finish, but it goes back to the, the training on the road. Correct. If you say you can't do anything in the road, you can't even go on a bike, you can't learn slowly. Yes. And then at 16 you give the keys, like, okay, 16, Here's your social media.
What are you going
to do with it?
You're not even trained at that point, slowly. So maybe there is a
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: progression. Absolutely. You don't give the keys to a 10 year old to drive the car. Why not? They're not going to fit on the seat. They can't reach the pedals. I drove
Sean Martin: on a farm when I was 10. I was
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: just about to say, unless you
have
a
Sean Martin: farm.
But that helps you to learn. Yes. So we were going to say this, I was going to say the same exact thing. And I think, um, I guess the point is that if they're too young, I think there's [00:27:00] still some learning that needs to take place.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Absolutely.
Sean Martin: But guided, there has to be some guidance. Yes, parents or school or government or some other agency or it's everyone's responsibility.
Yeah I mean, they're they're groups that do sports to bring kids and they're learning life skills while they're playing sports at the Y Correct that kind of stuff Which then may switch into in a digital world That means people viewing into what's going on, which we then open up the whole can of worms of privacy.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Correct.
Sean Martin: And then the whole cultural thing comes back at the beginning. Yes,
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: yes. Might
Sean Martin: work well in Singapore, China, maybe not so much in the States, for example. Fascinating conversation, lovely to meet you.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Likewise. I
Sean Martin: wish you the best with all your, your sessions. Yes, I'll be tired on
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Thursday. I know.
Sean Martin: Thank you. Hopefully you have many more chats with, with people. I'm not sure they'll all rush the stage [00:28:00] to get your sticker. Oh yes,
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: the very,
Sean Martin: very exclusive sticker. Yep,
Marco Ciappelli: yep, I will use that. And, uh, we should stay in touch. Because this is, this is again a global problem. We're not going to resolve it at an individual level.
And we can all help each other, like achieving something, um, together. And that's why we travel when we can. I try to ditch
Sean Martin: him all the time.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. It's
Sean Martin: not working, clearly. No,
Marco Ciappelli: I found my way. Even the day after, but I got
here.
Well, thank you so much, JJ. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Everybody else stay tuned out there.
We got so many conversations. She got three We've got, I don't know, 15 years of podcasting.
Sean Martin: Say hello.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Absolutely. And,
Sean Martin: uh, find us. And we have stickers, too. So, we'll see you soon.
Marco Ciappelli: Take care, everybody. Bye. Thank you, JJ.
Jacqueline (JJ) Jayne: Thank you.