In this episode of The Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast, Sean Martin and author Evgeniy Kharam explore the transformative power of soft skills in the tech and cybersecurity industries, highlighting how effective communication and human connection are essential for success. Tune in to discover practical insights and actionable advice from Evgeniy's new book, 'Architecting Success: The Art of Soft Skills in Technical Sales,' that can elevate anyone's professional interactions and outcomes.
Guest: Evgeniy Kharam, Co-Founder, Security Architecture [@secarchpodcast]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/ekharam/
Website | https://www.softskillstech.ca/
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Host: Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martin
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Episode Notes
In this episode of The Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast, host Sean Martin speaks with Evgeniy Kharam about the essential role of soft skills in the technology and cybersecurity sectors. While many discussions in this field tend to center on hard technical skills or the latest cyber threats, this episode shifts the focus to the often-overlooked soft skills that can drive success.
Evgeniy Kharam, who is also an author and holds a key position in his company, shares insightful perspectives from his newly released book 'Architecting Success: The Art of Soft Skills in Technical Sales.' According to Evgeniy, effective communication and connection are foundational elements not just for sales engineers and teams, but for anyone working in any field, including cybersecurity. He notes that regardless of how advanced one's technical skills might be, the ability to connect with people, convey ideas clearly, and build lasting relationships is crucial.
One of the primary points that Evgeniy discusses is the changing landscape for sales engineers. He mentions that the role has evolved significantly over the years. Previously, sales engineers primarily focused on giving demos and technical presentations. Today, they are expected to be deeply involved in the sales process, understand procurement intricacies, and effectively communicate technical merits and business values. Host
Sean Martin addresses the barriers that often exist within organizational cultures, where roles are tightly defined, and stepping outside of one's designated lane can be frowned upon. Evgeniy suggests that this old-school mentality needs to shift. Everyone in a company—from engineers to marketers and beyond—is involved in sales in some way. From making a strong first impression to ensuring clear and intentional communication, soft skills can enhance every aspect of organizational interaction.
The duo also touches upon the importance of continuous self-improvement. Evgeniy advises that one of the best ways to practice soft skills is outside the workplace. Whether making a cashier smile or engaging in meaningful conversations with strangers, these efforts contribute to refining one's ability to connect and communicate effectively.
Sean Martin concludes the episode by highlighting that everyone is, in essence, always selling something—whether it's a product, a service, or simply themselves. The more refined these soft skills, the better positioned anyone will be to achieve success in their respective fields. For those interested in taking a deeper dive into this topic, Evgeniy's book is a must-read, offering practical tips and strategies to help professionals hone their soft skills and, ultimately, architect success.
About the Book
In today's crowded marketplace, technology alone isn't enough. Architecting Success equips sales professionals and anyone in tech and science to unlock their full potential through the power of soft skills.
Architecting Success: The Power of Soft Skills in Technical Sales. Connect to Sell More is a practical guide for architects, sales professionals, and anyone in the technology and science sectors to enhance their effectiveness. The book begins by exploring the historical dynamics between sales and technical teams, emphasizing how soft skills can bridge the gap between these traditionally siloed groups. It highlights how focusing on mentoring, problem-solving, listening, teamwork, and empathy can connect to increase sales.
Here is a call to action for technical sales professionals to embrace and cultivate their soft skills. By engaging and reflecting, readers can unlock their full potential and achieve personal and professional excellence in the competitive world of technical sales.
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Resources
Architecting Success: The Art of Soft Skills in Technical Sales: Connect to Sell More (Book): https://www.softskillstech.ca/soft-skills-book
LinkedIn Post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ekharam_softskilltech-new-book-activity-7223356920441585664-NGrq
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Book | Architecting Success: The Art of Soft Skills in Technical Sales: Connect to Sell More | A Conversation with Evgeniy Kharam | Redefining CyberSecurity with Sean Martin
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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Sean Martin: [00:00:00] And here we are. You're very welcome to a new episode of redefining cybersecurity here on ITSP magazine. I am Sean Martin, your host, where if you listen to the show, you know, I get to talk to all kinds of cool people about cool topics. This one is. Slightly different from the norm of hardcore, uh, security operations and building out programs, but still very related.
And, uh, I'm thrilled to have you, Gideon. It's more soft. It's more soft. It's a softer top. We're not, we're not, uh, looking at the, the, uh, tech stack necessarily. I think we will touch on it somehow, but we're looking at the soft skills. And, uh, how can we architect, uh, stuff for success? And I think, uh, specifically the book looks at sales, but I think we can learn a lot from it, uh, beyond sales as well.
And I'm going to dig into that and see, see if that's true or not. Eugene, good to see
Evgeniy Kharam: you. Thank you. Always happy to chat with you. And as you mentioned, [00:01:00] it's not a hard topic. It's a soft topic today. We're going to talk today about soft skills. And it's interesting because you mentioned SOC, you mentioned different technologies.
Even if we have a very amazing technology, a very amazing technical idea, if I'm a bright individual that has a lot of ideas, but I don't know how to approach to Sean, I don't know how to sell Sean my idea. I'm talking internally because if you think about this, we all selling something to each other. Hey, let's go for lunch.
Hey, let's change this tier one to tier two. Let's change how we have this alert. So we still selling all the time in a way. So we all in a way selling. In a different way, and if I don't know how to approach to Sean, if I don't know how to make Sean listen to me, and maybe Sean is very busy, and maybe he's multitasking, has several screens, and he's unfocused, and I want to bring him to my attention, but if I created a connection with Sean, if I created a [00:02:00] communication with Sean, if Sean liked to talk to me about bikes, about golf, about travel, is that helpful?
Then it's automatically easier for me to talk to Sean. It's automatically easier for me to convey my ideas. And Sean probably wants to listen to me as well because there is some kind of connection. There is like a line between us or like a bridge or stairs. We can build on top like building blocks. This is the book was all about.
It's how to connect to people. Majority of this relate to sales, but majority of this relate to everybody as well. Yeah.
Sean Martin: Yeah. And, uh, so you use the term stairs and I'm going to use the, the gondola rising, right? And connection might be biking and cyber connection might be skiing and cyber. I'm doing that on purpose, right?
Cause you, you're bringing people together to have these conversations at the events that you run. And, uh, so a shout out to those two things and hopefully you get to, uh, Uh, [00:03:00] in, in the summer biking event. Hopefully you get some good attendance.
Evgeniy Kharam: And then we get in two weeks. Our biking event is actually wouldn't record in two weeks.
Not sure when it's gonna be air, but yes.
Sean Martin: Right. And then the, uh, then the winter one on the slopes, which is really cool. So I won't be able to attend the, the summer one, the biking one, which is a bummer because I just got a new bike. But, uh, nonetheless. We'll, uh, I do, I do love to ski, so hopefully I'll get a chance to do the skiing one, but the, the purpose of me bringing the, uh, the, the connection in.
Ultimately, we want to not just do better for ourselves. Certainly we want to do better for ourselves, but I think we want the relationship to do better collectively for all parties involved. So if we're looking at an organization for the organization, and if we. I'm assuming if we approach this in a way that, that doesn't tap into the soft skills, we leave a lot on the table and don't bring all things to bear to [00:04:00] get the best results.
So let, that's just me guessing where this might go. Let's, let's dig into this. But first I wanted to. Maybe get some thoughts from you on the inspiration behind this. I know a number of months back, we, we talked about recording this and you were still in process of, of, I don't know if you're still writing or in the publishing stage of the book, but, um, it was really rooted in, as you mentioned, sales.
So cybersecurity organizations and sales teams, Making the connection to the buyers and driving a successful sale to your point of, of some technology to wrap into a program to help a team succeed. Um, what was the inspiration behind that and how has it, how has it gone? It's actually evolved. The book launching.
Yeah.
Evgeniy Kharam: It's evolved because the original idea, there was two ideas that came, maybe even several. [00:05:00] One is I saw the. Evolution of the sales engineer. So the first idea was definitely the sales engineering and how engineer change. And how the topic became so complex that the salesperson will have a very hard time remembering all the nuances of the features.
And in the past, I think sales engineers did more like a demo, and this was their main job, and leave it there. And right now, I see they have to be much more involved and doing all the smoothing and connection with people as well. In the same time, the salespeople Now we need to understand more about procurement, much more.
In the past, we can just send an email and go do the work, or agree when we're gonna sign the DPO. Right now, these days are gone, long time ago. You need an NDA, you need an MNDA, you need an MSA. There are so many different acronyms and so many different documents you need to sign to move somewhere, that even if everybody liked the solution, you [00:06:00] may need to spend another couple of months to actually sign this.
So the salespeople became like a procurement gurus. So my initial idea was to talk about how the sales engineer changed and why they can move the sales and help much more with the sales process. In the same time, I saw a very big shift on the connection part, because before COVID, we had physical meetings, and it's mean we'll physically talk to each other, we'll be in the same room.
We're not going to be distracted. We're not going to be on our phones. You're not going to have LinkedIn, Facebook, and other things running in the background on the multiple screens we have. And now you can be on the call. You don't even know if the person listening to you is actually with you or they just say, yes, yes, nice, nice.
And then doing something else. So combining these two together, this was led to me, like we need to connect to people. We need to do a better job of connecting. And only then. When I [00:07:00] connected to Sean, then Sean will care about what actually I'm going to say and what's going to happen with about my product.
Because if not, Sean may just be in his own way. And on top of this, when I find my editor and started to write, I realized that it's just a kind of tip of the iceberg. We need to build on top of this. So I teach you, and again, don't forget this book is not about how to close deals. It's not about core selling.
It's about connecting to people and there is many other books that will teach you how to sell and your CRO and your sales manager and your CAO teach you how to sell. But we do have amazingly smart individuals that have ideas, but they cannot not kinda weigh them in a very good way. So one example. I may jump on a call and they're going to be amazingly bright CTO or sales engineer and he will start to explain to me so we designed this cop and it was brilliant because I [00:08:00] did this in the army and No, you know like we put AI like what are you talking about?
Like I know they're a smart idea, but I lost you So, if you think about this, there are traditional soft skills are empathy, active listening, emotional intelligence, maybe understanding the part, but it's not there, it's not just, sorry, it's not just this, it's if I'm talking to you. And I cannot control my voice.
I don't have a good way to do it. And it's also a problem because now I don't want to listen to you or I lose focus, I lose attention. And we have such a small kind of Delta of your attention span when you're actually going to listen to me. So what if you record yourself as a human being applicable to anyone, maybe you present internally to your manager.
Maybe you present to your team. Maybe you do whatever it is. How many of us record ourself, listen to ourself. [00:09:00] And start understanding, Oh, how my voice sound, am I too low? Am I too loud? Am I too fast? Do which filler words I'm using? Don't get me wrong. I had a lot of filler words and I still have some I use.
So I use awesome that I still couldn't remove from myself. But using the technology analogy, I have like a watchdog in my head that watch how I speak and remind me, slow down. You don't need to rush anywhere. You don't have to have a filler word. You can just pause between the words, you can just pause between the sentences, but let's build on top of it.
Do you know how to ask questions? Do you want to know if you ask closed question or an open question? When do you use which? I was just joking on LinkedIn, like literally before we started this conversation. Then when I announced I'm working for a new company, I'm an author of my book. I had five people reach to me to ask if I [00:10:00] need a pen test, a stock analysis or mobile development.
Like seriously, like you cannot do a basic research to understand what just happened. So this is annoying for customers to understand that not doing this, but back to customers, part of the book is the human communication. If I'm a sales person and I am talking to you and I'm describing to you the process of how this engagement is going to go.
Then this was the customer needs to ask as well. I have a different presentation that actually helping customers to deal better with his vendors and the eight. What is the process? How long the legal will take, or even the customers may tell the vendor how they want this information. And this was the other part that also was a big motivation for the book.
We jump on this calls. And the vendor start, let me show you my presentation. Oh, let me show you my,
Sean Martin: let me tell you about your problem. Yeah.
Evgeniy Kharam: Yes. How [00:11:00] often the sales teams, sales engineer, salesperson, sorry about that, as the customer, Hey, Mr. Customer, I know you probably know how you like to convey the information.
Do you want me to do a demo? You want to talk about my solution? You want me to present to you? You want to talk about architecture? We don't see this very often. So. If you are the customer listening to this right now, this is for you when the vendor jump on a call, you have all the rights to tell them, Hello, Mr.
Vendor. I'm very interested in what you guys can do. I am an audio person or I'm a video person or I am depend on your learning style. And we all have different styles. I want you to start there or maybe start with a few slides and let them do the demo or talk to me about the design. So you have all the power to do this.
For example, what I do when a vendor presents to me, I always ask, [00:12:00] is it okay if I interrupt you in the middle? Now I'm not rude and the vendor says, yes, of course. Or when I'm presenting, I always say, guys, by the way, I know the material. Okay. So I don't need to tell you everything I know if I'm not relevant or you want to ask you a question Stop me anytime this way.
I'm giving people this option. Okay can do that in my mind. It is all soft skills And you mentioned about the connection part, because again, I'm jumping from place to place, but it's all in the book. If you remember Dale Carnegie, how to connect to people, how to find friends and influence people. Some of the inspiration came from there as well.
How do we connect to people? I can jump with you on a call and I can see something behind you and we can talk about that. Or I may do a research and see that you in bikes or in skis, like, oh, by the way, I like skiing or he was skiing again. We have to [00:13:00] manage this not to be creepy. I'm like, Oh, Sean, how you doing?
I know you went to Tahoe last year. How was this ride?
Sean Martin: So let me ask you this. Cause I, I've had experiences, uh, where I was working at a vendor and I was doing marketing and was involved with sales enablement, but had a very clear line draw for me that I was not in sales and was specifically told. You, you are not to engage with a client outside of sales, doing that.
And sales can choose to bring you in. And it was very shocking to me. Um, cause obviously my goal was to bring in a client and solve their problem and make a sale for the company. Um, but I, I bring that up because I just think either as direct as [00:14:00] that lines are drawn, or sometimes just cultures draw certain lines and say, this is your lane.
Um, Play in your lane. Don't jump into mine. So you don't mess my thing up or I'm the sales person. I own this relationship. I don't want, there might be some, some ego there and some fear that the, the deal might get screwed up. Right? So there are these lines, right? Either purposely and directly drawn or just culturally loosely drawn that even if you have the skills.
Now, which we're going to get into in a minute, but even if you have them, sometimes you may not have the opportunity to use them. I don't know if you've ever uncovered that.
Evgeniy Kharam: So I work for a company called hard jury group, not called said there is for a very long time. And for a very, very long time, we had no, no titles at all, you know, because basically everybody was a sales in the company.
And if you think about that, we have this idea of elevator pitch. So if [00:15:00] you're going with somebody in the elevator. And they ask, Hey, Sean, what do you do for a living? You're like, Oh, I am a marketing person in this company. So you're selling, like, if you don't know, if you're not selling, what else you're doing?
You're telling about the company. If you're doing a good pitch, then yes. Now we have different levels of selling because, okay, Sean made the initial connection and then somebody else. Julia, John, whatever it is on the other side, like your idea, by the way, I'm going to understand who, where you live, where your geographical area, and I'm going to find the person in charge on your account, on in charge on your field or whatever vertical it is.
So my personal view, everybody in sales all the time for each company, every company, If I see a Facebook employee and he doesn't know what's Facebook, what they do, then it's like, why you work there? You don't need to know every [00:16:00] nuance of the company, but at least understand what is the main vector of the company is quite fundamental for me.
And we should teach everyone to express their ideas and how is it done correctly. So this is, again, this is my, my view on the part. It doesn't mean I'm correct. It's just, I have my own opinions.
Sean Martin: So talk to me about, so clearly, well, maybe not clearly people, I think we're learning some things here now. So initially written for sales.
I think your, your statement just now basically says everybody's selling at some level. Um, so I think. Everybody can find value in, in the things that you're writing in the book from,
Evgeniy Kharam: from a, from a specific chapter is going to be more oriented for people that selling, you know, how to ask questions and just [00:17:00] say, you know, it's a filler word, but by the beginning, there is a lot of stuff that are reentered for the sales team.
So it is technical person or not a technical person or for marketing as well. How to research, how to ask questions that we apply to everyone. There's a chapter about POC. There's some history about sales. There's a chapter about teams and how teams of sales and sales engineering work together. But there's also chapters that are applicable to everyone.
And they are the building blocks like the voice. But there is also a chapter about fear. What if I'm afraid to go to present to a board? What I'm afraid to do this call, what is the biggest, the deal is too big and I need to prepare myself or I need to have a presentation. There's a chapter about how to set up your video because we're now doing Zooms, Teams, Googles.
So I have four screens. I use a teleprompter. I have a high end web camera. I have a microphone here. I have two lights [00:18:00] here. There's many different things that's happening that took me a while to understand. What if I have a standing desk? Can I use a standing desk? So this is all like 10 bits and building blocks that are creating the better portfolio yourself, like a tuning of a personality, the same as if you take a car and we tune different things, it cannot work by itself.
And if you stay in the idea of the car, this is a chapter that came later on in the book that was not originally there. present. So basically abo do 8 10 12 16 calls a day be overwhelmed. So what i or seven didn't go as ex
How do I actually stabilize myself? Do I need to think about what? So there is these chapters that are applicable to everyone because we all do them. Even if you're doing an internal job as an engineer and marketing on HR person and you constantly on the calls, can you make it better? I'm a big believer of a video [00:19:00] call and um, I don't think anybody can convince me otherwise because five years ago there was no other way.
You went for a physical meeting, And I saw you, it didn't come in a box, so don't tell me I don't do video calls, because this is how most of the meeting was, we went present into the room and we spoke to each other. And if you don't want to make your hair or have a baseball hat because you forgot to do a shower, then it's a different problem.
Because many people say, Oh, I don't want a video call. I was like, why? I have a massive background. Now, having said this, you may be working out of a hotel, you may be working out of a small apartment, maybe you have kids. I can understand, in general, why maybe you cannot do this, but if you're not, then I think it's your responsibility as a professional person to be on video and to sound nice as well.
To spend some time on the microphone, [00:20:00] because I had this conversation with a friend, he's like, no, no, I don't need the microphone, why would I spend a hundred bucks? I was like, Wait a second. If you're going to go to a customer, would you buy shoes? Would you buy a suit? It's like, oh, yeah, of course. So why would you not spend money on the microphone or on the webcam?
And it's applicable to anyone. Now, if you don't use a good camera, then the people are not going to look, you're not going to look worth other people. Maybe you cannot control the white balance of your camera and you're working with a different environment that people are going to look green or bluish or yellowish.
It's all perception. It's all how people take you right now,
Sean Martin: as you were describing, would you buy shoes or a jacket or something? I was just thinking, would you walk to a, walk to a meeting and end up there all sweaty? Or would you take a cab? Right?
Evgeniy Kharam: You probably, you'll probably try to do the car. We know sometimes there is like, I was funny enough.
We were, me and my friend was driving to [00:21:00] present and we were both presenting in the same conference. And we realize. That driving will be slower than walking because of downtown Toronto. He, so he was presenting first, he ended up running there. Eventually I came first and I presented just to make sure he's okay because he was also acting like that.
So we were laughing about, uh, this exact problem.
Sean Martin: Yeah. So it did. It's a. What I'm taking from this is presenting yourself in the best possible way and not, not accidentally arriving there, but having some thoughts and, and practice and even listening and watching yourself to know how you. At least they're presenting.
And then hopefully, as you said, if you can, you can share your material, I'm going to put material, your presentation, whatever, with a manager or a peer, you might get some feedback as well for how you're being received. [00:22:00] Um, so how, how do you feel, how do you find that people will. Use the book. Is it a read it from start to finish?
Would they, would they be able to find the chapters that are most relevant to them? Or how would
Evgeniy Kharam: I think depending on the person, they can, they can of course look and choose the chapters they want. I think this is a good idea to start from the beginning and maybe skip some chapters, but what we also included in the end is something I call SSDP.
It's, um, in the beginning it was called a cheat sheet. So basically it's a plan for 30, days. On how to improve your soft skills and there's going to be available on the website as well. So I have a website and on the website
Sean Martin: stands for soft soft
Evgeniy Kharam: skills development plan. You know, it's right here. So it's a 30, 60, 90, how to improve your soft skills and how to also reflect on your soft skills as well.
So find a peer, find somebody that's going to [00:23:00] judge you, not judge you, help you, mentor you and what you can do, how you can, what kind of training you need to improve your soft skills, how you work on active listening, how do you kind of broaden your horizon to understand how to connect better to people, what to talk about them.
I also tell people. Don't fake stuff like one of the examples in the, in the book is I'm never going to have a guitar behind me because I don't play a guitar because it's called a reverse hook. Oh, again, you have a guitar. What do you play? Like, uh, I don't play anything, but I saw you play guitars. I put a guitar there.
No, no, we're not, we're not doing that, but you may see other sports again, have a huge green screen behind me. Sometimes you're like, Oh my God, what is that? Top of the green screen like, Oh, I have a podcast media so I can open up and talk about it. So there's different, different ways to connect. It could be find the hooks, could be reverse hooks.
We could do some, some research. It could be completely come cold turkey and just see what you find and connect with them. But this is where [00:24:00] Broaden Our Horizon helps to us. And one thing people ask me, How do you actually practice soft skills? And you practice soft skills, not at work. You practice them outside of your work with the people you don't know.
So you're trying to connect to people when you in the lineup, when you're buying groceries. This is one of the things I'm doing all the time. I'm trying to have the person behind the counter to smile while I'm doing the cashier. So if I can make the cashier smile, ding, check, I did my good will for today.
And I guess what? I practiced and it makes them a bit more happy. So it's a win win situation. If I didn't make them smile, okay, that it didn't work for me, but at least I can find the line.
Sean Martin: So talk to me as we start to wrap here is what you just said you, you made an attempt and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Is there, is [00:25:00] there a way to measure? Is there a mean time to, uh, soft skills?
Evgeniy Kharam: So first of all, We need to understand that we're taking ourself out of the comfort zone. So it means that we're doing something we're not used to do in some cases.
Because if we continue doing what we're doing right now, it means we're not learning anything. So one, don't try to do it all the time. Try to check and see what's working and what is the reaction you're getting. Because you're not going to have 100 percent and it's totally fine. I like the idea of 80 20 rules.
You're doing 80s. 80 percent of the time, what you 20 percent you're doing something else and you're trying to experiment with stuff. So the measurement here is you find a new way to connect to people and you practice this like 10 times, for example. And you see how many times it worked. If it worked two or three times and it's something clicked and you can continue doing this and refine the technique.[00:26:00]
So this is I guess the measurement and I think the best way to understand is You Does people want to talk to you again? No. So let's say I've been in your podcast already twice or three times. I think I made something great because you do want to invite me back. So here you go. Here's your measurement.
Sean Martin: Perfect. Perfect. Well, Guinea, it's a, it's always a pleasure chatting with you and, uh, I will, I'll miss you in Vegas. And I'll miss you at the, at the bike, uh, summit, both the conference and the, and the top, when you, when you get to the top, but hopefully I'll get to see you soon. And congratulations on the book.
It is architecting success, the art of soft skills and technical sales connect to sell more, uh, just released a couple of weeks back. Now I'm going to link to this on Amazon for the U S and Canada. I think I have both [00:27:00] those links and I encourage everybody to. Be purposeful in this. I think to your point at the very beginning, we're all selling something either ourselves or on behalf of the company and the better prepared we are, the more deliberate we are, the more precise we are with how we connect with others.
Hopefully we'll do a better job at selling whatever it is. We're we're slinging. Sounds good to us. Thank you.
Evgeniy Kharam: Always a pleasure. Enjoy.
Sean Martin: Yeah, you're amazing. Thank you. And, uh, everybody listening, watching, please do grab a copy of the book. And, uh, please do also stay tuned to more redefining cybersecurity here on ITSB magazine, subscribe and share with your friends and enemies.
And we'll, uh, see you on the next one. Thanks
everybody.