Unleashing Curiosity and Connection: Insights from "The Power of Ask" in an Era of Innovation, where information is at our fingertips and digital interactions often replace face-to-face conversations, the art of asking meaningful questions is more crucial than ever.
Guest: Jeff Wetzler, Author & Co-Founder, Transcend Education
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-wetzler-9ba3824/
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
In a captivating episode of the Audio Signal Podcast, host Marco Ciappelli dives deep into the essence of curiosity, storytelling, and how we can tap into the hidden wisdom of people around us with Jeff Wetzler, the author of the thought-provoking book *Ask: Tap into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You for Unexpected Breakthroughs in Leadership and Life*.
The Genesis of Ask
Jeff Wetzler, co-founder of Transcend, a notable education innovation organization, shares the inspiration behind his book. Stemming from a career-long pursuit of understanding how learning experiences can become deeper and more impactful, Wetzler identified a pervasive pattern of missed opportunities for learning—from the unspoken wisdom of people in our lives. This observation led to the inception of *Ask*, which aims to unlock the potential for breakthroughs in leadership and life by fostering deeper connections and understanding through the simple yet profound act of asking questions.
The "Ask" Approach: A Deep Dive
Wetzler elaborates on the five key practices encapsulated in the "Ask" approach—*Choose Curiosity, Making it Safe, Asking Quality Questions, Listening to Learn,* and *Reflect and Reconnect*. These practices are not only transformative in personal development but are essential skills in leadership, fostering environments where open communication and mutual understanding flourish.
1. Choose Curiosity: Breaking free from the certainty trap to harness the power of curiosity.
2. Making it Safe: Creating an environment where people feel comfortable sharing their insights and stories.
3. Asking Quality Questions: Distinguishing between surface-level inquiries and questions that lead to deeper understanding.
4. Listening to Learn: Attuning oneself to not just the words spoken but the emotions and actions that accompany them.
5. Reflect and Reconnect: Processing the information gathered and following up to deepen connections and ensure understanding.
Application Beyond the Pages: Social Media and AI
The conversation navigates through the contemporary challenges of social media and artificial intelligence, platforms where the nuances of asking and listening are often lost. Wetzler advocates for using these tools to enhance rather than hinder our curiosity. From utilizing AI for brainstorming questions to fostering constructive dialogues on social media, there are ways to leverage technology to encourage genuine inquiry and learning.
A Sociology of Communication: The Vital Role of Inquiry
Wetzler's insights resonate profoundly within the sociology of communication. In a society where digital interactions often substitute personal connections, the act of asking meaningful questions and truly listening stands as a beacon of authentic human interaction. By embracing curiosity and fostering an environment conducive to open dialogue, we can transcend the often superficial exchanges that characterize our digital age, tapping into the rich tapestry of human experience and knowledge.
The Transformative Power of Questions
This conversation between Marco Ciappelli and Jeff Wetzler serves as a powerful reminder of the transformative potential that lies in asking the right questions. *Ask* not only invites readers to rekindle their innate curiosity but also equips them with the tools to build deeper, more meaningful connections. In an era defined by rapid technological change and impersonal digital interactions, Wetzler’s message is a simple call to reclaim the simple yet profound power of human curiosity.
About the Book
Too often, we don’t find out what’s truly on others’ hearts and minds because we don’t know how to ask the right questions in the right ways. Co-founder of Transcend and former international business consultant and Teach for America executive Jeff Wetzler wants to show you how to fix that. In Ask, he brings you a powerful method called The Ask Approach™, based on a simple premise: that tapping into what other people truly think, know, and feel is a game-changing superpower.
In Section I, Wetzler reveals the most common things that people think and feel but often keep to themselves, as well as the key reasons why they choose to withhold information that could be valuable to you and your organization.
Section II delves into the five steps of the Ask Approach, each answering an essential question.
Section III helps you make asking an everyday superpower – not only for yourself but also for your team and organization, as well as for the next generation and society at large.
The skills and messages of Ask could not be more timely. In a fast-changing world where AI is supplanting an increasing range of skills, the ability to learn from and connect with other people is one of the most important, fulfilling and uniquely human capabilities to master.
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Resources
Ask: Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You for Unexpected Breakthroughs In Leadership and Life (Book): https://www.amazon.com/Ask-Hidden-Unexpected-Breakthroughs-Leadership/dp/0306832690
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Book | Ask: Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You for Unexpected Breakthroughs In Leadership and Life | A Conversation With Author Jeff Wetzler | Audio Signals Podcast With Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of audio signal podcast. As you know, lately, I've been repositioning the antenna. It used to be about everything. It got me curious. And then I decided that there were a little too much. I would say yes to everybody that wanted to come on the show because I'm curious about everything.
And one thing I really like is storytelling. And, uh, and I like to use this opportunity to get to meet the storytellers and, uh, see what's their story. So, as you can tell, it's all about stories and, uh, sometimes you want to ask for a good story. Because maybe if you don't ask, you're going to get the answer that maybe you were not looking for.
So, I'm simplifying the title of this book that we're going to talk about today with these three letters, ASK, and one simple verb that I think has a lot in bed. And to do that, of course, if you're watching the video, you already said it is Jeff Wetzler, which is the author here with me. And if you're listening, it's true, he's here.
Jeff, welcome to the show.
[00:01:11] Jeff Wetzler: It's great to be with you, Marco. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:14] Marco Ciappelli: It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. I was very intrigued when the book was presented to me. I haven't read it because I don't travel in the future yet. So it hasn't published yet. It will be soon after this conversation has been released, but it was intriguing.
So we'll get there. Let's start with you. Who is Jeff?
[00:01:36] Jeff Wetzler: Great. So, uh, Jeff Wetzler, I am a father, husband, son, uh, brother, and also I co lead an organization called Transcend, which is an education innovation organization that I co founded in 2015 together with Elon Samoa. And I'm also the author of this book, Ask.
Tap into the hidden wisdom of people around you for unexpected breakthroughs in leadership and life.
[00:02:03] Marco Ciappelli: So, uh, like I said at the beginning, uh, a short verb, uh, allowed to pock into that, right? Yes. Yes. So, um, you Decided to write this book because somebody asked you to do that?
[00:02:20] Jeff Wetzler: This is a book that has been in me probably for 20 or 30 years in some form or another.
I've basically spent my entire career focused on one question, which is how can we make learning experiences Deeper, more powerful, more enduring and sticky for people. Um, I've done that in a variety of contexts from K 12 education with kids, uh, all the way through corporate, um, you know, fortune 500 companies and everything in between.
Um, and one pattern that I have both observed, but also personally experienced myself, um, as a, as a, as a person, as a leader is this pattern of what I call the unspoken. Um, which is that. We are all surrounded by people in our lives that might be our friends or our partners or coworkers or customers. And those people to your point about stories, they are filled with experiences, ideas, perspectives, stories, feedback for us that too often.
We never hear, you know, to use your language. Our antenna is not tuned to it and we don't pick it up. Um, and we miss that signal. Um, and, uh, if we could actually tune in to their stories. We would all be better off. We would have better relationships. We would make better decisions together. We would save time.
We'd be more creative, but, um, we don't, cause they don't tell us. And so the book is really trying to tackle the problem to your, to your question. The reason I wrote the book is because I care a lot about this problem. I care a lot about learning and anytime there's a missed learning opportunity. For me, that's kind of like a, like a micro tragedy.
Um, and so because I have discovered that there's actually something we can do to solve this problem. Um, and I've benefited from many mentors and teachers who have taught me a lot about this problem and how to solve it. A few years ago. I wanted to pay it forward and share with others what I have benefited from.
And that's what prompted me to write the book.
[00:04:22] Marco Ciappelli: I love it. And it comes a lot of question. I do some mentorship myself with a group called the mentor project, a nonprofit organization.
[00:04:29] Jeff Wetzler: So yeah, I'm familiar. I think it's a great organization.
[00:04:32] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, perfect. They're great. So I talk to them all the time. There is, you know, astronauts in there.
There is physicists. And we, you know, of course I get in there and I feel an imposter just to start with, but we all share a lot of story as a kind of like a lateral mentoring. And, and I realized that you may have so much knowledge, even as an astrophysicist, but it's about how then you communicate that knowledge.
That transform it into an appealing story and something that could motivate people. And are you focusing more on on the kids or do you then apply this to every phase of your life? I mean, I know you mentioned leadership, so I imagine that applies to
[00:05:15] Jeff Wetzler: I believe that it's applicable to every part of life.
Um, the book actually has specifically a chapter in it around how can we raise the next generation to be curious question askers. So that they can elicit the stories from people around them as well. Um, and we can talk if you want to talk more about kids. Um, I'm very passionate about that in education.
But I also see it as applying to young, you know, adult learners too.
[00:05:39] Marco Ciappelli: I want to start with the kids. Because, you know, kids want stories. They go to bed, they want stories. That's how they learn the moral. Um, you know, we're still telling stories that I don't know in the 18 1700 and earlier than that maybe a little bit more Watered down with not so much gore as originally That's right.
[00:05:59] Jeff Wetzler: That's right. Some of these fairy tales are like, you know quite gory.
[00:06:02] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, wait a minute. They didn't Said that but yeah, well, maybe you don't want to hear the real story. That's right. That's right. It's good But my point is yeah, they you feed them and i'm going to bring an example here on how I, I always say, you know, I'm not good at math.
I'm more of a humanistic person. Um, and then I look back and I'm like, well, the teacher that I had, they were really good. They make me love this because they were telling me a good story. And maybe the math, the subject I don't like, maybe I haven't been infatuated by it because they were kind of dry the way maybe they were presented.
So is this. A factor that can change the direction of somebody's kid passion and develop the future?
[00:06:49] Jeff Wetzler: Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of learning science that says if you just feed kids dry facts and information, um, it is not going to stick as much as if it's emotionally salient for them. Um, and the emotional dimension of it actually helps with the, you know, what learning scientists call the encoding of the, of the information.
Um, and, uh, stories can be a very powerful way to make information much more emotionally. I mean, even I know myself, I, when I grew up as a kid, I. hated history classes because I would just, it was just seemed like lots of facts and facts and information and I could never seem to remember it.
[00:07:31] Marco Ciappelli: Dates and names.
[00:07:32] Jeff Wetzler: Dates and names and whatever. But if you'd give me like a historical fiction novel where there's an actual story, I would love it. And I would remember so much more about the history because of that.
[00:07:43] Marco Ciappelli: Wow. That's fantastic.
[00:07:45] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. But I, but the other thing I'll say about kids is that kids are so naturally curious to learn other people's stories.
Um, they are just hungry to know why did that person do that? And who is that person and what's going to happen next? And all that kind of thing. What, what is interesting. And I think also sad is that over time we see that curiosity decrease in, in, in most kids. Um, there's a lot of interesting research that talks about how kids start their life, 400 questions a day.
And then it dwindles as they get into grade school, you know, down to 50, down to 20, down to by high school, almost no questions per day. Um, and so what I talk about in the book is how can we actually rekindle that curiosity among kids so that they can continue to be those hungry learners that can pull out and elicit the stories of other people too.
[00:08:34] Marco Ciappelli: Well, I have my theory on that.
[00:08:36] Jeff Wetzler: Yes. What is it?
[00:08:37] Marco Ciappelli: Well, I'm sure that there is no stupid question.
[00:08:41] Jeff Wetzler: Yes.
[00:08:41] Marco Ciappelli: Right? So the kid doesn't care. It's, you just want to know. And we grow up and we're still like, Oh, maybe they're going to think that I don't know. Maybe it's stupid. Maybe I want to be the smartest person in the room.
And that's usually a mistake. If people talk about that. Yeah. So right. Is that why do we, do we become more self, uh, aware of our, I don't know, ignorance? Yeah. Philosophical here.
[00:09:08] Jeff Wetzler: And we're, and I think kids and all of us are surrounded. In most cultures, uh, certainly here by a society that says asking questions or looking like you don't know, the answer is a sign of weakness.
Um, and going to school year, you know, year after year where the emphasis is on getting the answer right, as opposed to asking the best question. Um, can all of those subtle signals can send to kids, I just need to know things as opposed to ask questions and be curious, and I shouldn't exhibit any uncertainty because that could be a sign of, you know, stupidity or weakness or all that kind of thing.
We need to change all of that if we want to actually encourage this kind of ongoing curiosity. But I do think that's a lot of the reason why, um, why we see the dampening of curiosity in young people.
[00:09:58] Marco Ciappelli: And we put that in AI too. You know, when they hallucinate, it's because it just can't say, I don't know, it's just going to create an answer and just make, just make it up.
[00:10:07] Jeff Wetzler: Right. Exactly. Exactly. There's some really interesting research that I came across from the book that talks about the power of modeling for kids. If they see adults in their life, Just kind of don't don't ask questions or act like they know everything, etc. It sends a very powerful message to kids.
That's how they should behave. But if they see a teacher who says, Huh, that's interesting. I don't know. Let's explore that.
All of a sudden, it
changes the kids behavior and they start to ask a lot more questions too.
[00:10:38] Marco Ciappelli: I love it. I love it. So let's get into into the book. What's what's the What's the methodology when, when people read the book and what they can get out of it?
[00:10:50] Jeff Wetzler: So the methodology is called the ask approach. Um, and it basically is trying to deal with the problem that we've been describing, which is that the people around us have such incredible stories and insights and perspectives that they're not sharing with us. And the goal of the ask approach is to really better connect with other people so that you can understand what they know, think, and feel.
Um, so that together you can make better decisions. You can collaborate better. You can save time together. All, all the good things that happen. And it's got five key steps or practices that are part of it. The first one is what I call choose curiosity. Um, and curiosity is really all about, it's really what we've been talking about, wanting to know what I can learn from someone else.
Um, what are the most important, um, lessons, ideas, insights, et cetera. Um, and to choose curiosity, we have to break out of our own certainty. So much of the time in life. We think we've sized up another person. I know what's going on with them. I know what's going on in the situation, et cetera. And so this first practice, and in the book, I talk about a number of different strategies for how we can break out of this certainty trap that we're in and instead look at someone else and say, there's something I can learn from them, there's something I might be missing, they see the world differently than me, they might have ideas, they might have feedback.
And really awaken our curiosity to that. That's part one. Um, shall I keep going to the other pieces?
[00:12:15] Marco Ciappelli: I think we can do an episode, make an episode from each one. I think that's right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you go and stop you like when, when I have a comment, but let's go in the order.
[00:12:24] Jeff Wetzler: We'll go in the order.
So that's number one. Um, number two really has to do with, um, Making it safe for other people to tell us their stories, to tell us their insights, to give us their feedback, because even if we're curious, and I've learned this the hard way in my work and in my life, no matter how curious I am, Unless the other person actually feels safe and it's easy and comfortable and appealing for them to actually tell me what's true for them and tell me their stories, they're not going to tell me.
Um, so this is all about creating a level of connection, um, where they actually feel that level of trust. It also is about myself opening up to them. So they need to hear some of my stories and they need to hear some of my own vulnerability and my reasons for wanting to know from them in order for them to reciprocate and do the same.
And it's about radiating resilience so they can know that I can handle their stories and their truth. Um, that I'm not going to crumble, that I'm not going to punish them, that it's not going to damage our relationship. And so these dimensions of connection and opening up and radiating resilience are all components to making it safe for someone to, more safe for someone to share with us.
And that's, I would say, that's really. Especially important when we're, when we're working or talking across lines of difference, whether there's power, power differences in the relationship or identity differences in the relationship, because all of those differences can exacerbate people's fears about actually sharing openly.
[00:13:51] Marco Ciappelli: I'm going to, I'm going to jump on this one because I think about, I have many conversations about leadership, right? And so we'll go there and it's not a one way communication. It's a, it's a two way. You need to create. A boardroom or a brainstorm meeting where you allow that, you encourage that. And, and I've seen many times exactly the opposite where people are concerned, scared, uh, going back to what we're saying.
Am I going to ask the wrong question? Am I going to get fired because of this?
[00:14:27] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly. Exactly. I think it's more the norm, unfortunately, that if you, if you had, if you had x ray vision and you could be. seeing what's really going on inside the heads of people around a table in a business meeting. Um, what they're really thinking is this plan is not a good idea, or I'm concerned about this, or I have a better way, or what, why aren't we doing it this way?
Or doesn't he realize that, you know, all that kind of stuff, but it doesn't get said. And so much of that is because the leader hasn't made it safe. And, and so that's why that step is so important.
[00:15:01] Marco Ciappelli: Right. And maybe going back to the, to the mirror in the past that when they were a kid, they wouldn't care.
Right. Exactly. Because it's okay for a kid not to know.
[00:15:12] Jeff Wetzler: Totally. But over the years, they've accumulated all of these messages from socialization that say to them, keep it quiet. Don't make waves. Don't offend people. Play it safe. All that kind of stuff.
[00:15:24] Marco Ciappelli: But even after you graduated, you have a PhD. I mean, 20 years later, I don't remember certain things.
I still have to relearn things. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's okay. It's fine.
[00:15:38] Jeff Wetzler: Right. Right. But we forget that. Yeah. So the third
[00:15:43] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, let's go to the number three.
[00:15:45] Jeff Wetzler: Number three is really about actually asking the question. This is the, you know, this is why the book is called Ask. So many of us think we are asking questions, but our repertoire of questions is very limited.
Um, and in fact, many times things that come out of our mouth that have a question mark are not really questions. Um, they're actually statements or suggestions disguised as questions.
[00:16:10] Marco Ciappelli: Can you give me a couple of examples?
[00:16:14] Jeff Wetzler: Have you considered seeing a therapist? You know, that's kind of a question, but,
[00:16:19] Marco Ciappelli: It's more like advice, you
[00:16:21] Jeff Wetzler: know, don't you think it would be better if we ate Chinese food tonight or you know, that kind of thing.
Those are those are questions technically. They're not actually questions.
[00:16:31] Marco Ciappelli: They're, they're tricking you .
[00:16:33] Jeff Wetzler: They're trick questions, really. Um, and so in the book, I talk about a whole category of what I call crummy questions that really aren't questions, questions that are designed to trick or maneuver or attack people.
Um, and I distinguish that from what I call quality questions. Um, and the, the, the, the, the most important property of a quality question is that it genuinely helps you learn something from someone else. It comes from a place of authentic curiosity, and it really taps into the full story that someone else has.
Um, and there are, uh, very few of us have ever been trained on how do you actually ask questions and what are the most important questions to be asking, but there's a whole science to questions. Um, and, In this chapter of the book, I talk about questions for different kinds of occasions, so if you really want to understand truly someone's view, it's not enough to just say to them, what do you think about this?
Or where do you come down to this? But you have to dig deeper, and you have to say, how did you reach that? Walk me through your thinking process. Where did that come from? And you have to go even deeper than that and say, can you give me some examples like you just did when you asked me for an example? Um, or a lot of times, um, this is where stories come in.
People, people will sometimes say, what's your data or what's your evidence? But, but, but not everyone can translate what they know into data and evidence. So you can also say, tell me some stories of what you've seen in your life that leads you to that, to that conclusion. So there's a whole set of questions to really understand where those people are coming from.
There's also questions to invite their best ideas. You know, how might we do this differently? Um, what ideas do you have? What advice, what suggestions do you have? There's also questions that we can ask to help us know how our own stories and ideas are landing with other people. Just by saying, what's your reaction to that?
How does that land with you? What might I be missing? What am I overlooking? Etc. So, there's a set of questions that can really get to the heart of what someone really thinks and feels and truly invite the full totality of their stories and their human experience. Thanks. But once we pose those questions, the, uh, it really comes down to do we actually listened and how to, how well do we listen?
This is where I love your metaphor of. The antenna. And what is the antenna tuning to? Because I think in many ways, that's what listening is about. Is it, how are we tuning our antenna to the other person? Um, and oftentimes we think we're listening when we're not really listening. We think we're good at listening, but we're missing so much.
Um, for the book, I interviewed professional listeners. So for example, journalists, um, I interviewed one journalist, Jenny Anderson, who told me a story that whenever she interviews someone she's, she's writing a story about, she will record that interview if she can. And she'll replay it two, three, four times afterwards.
And every single time she hears something important that she didn't hear the previous time. And just imagine that. Most of the time we never do that. We just have that one interaction and we think we heard the person, but there's so much that we haven't heard. Um, and, um, In the book, I talk about a theory by actually a family therapist named David Kantor, who says, we actually have to listen through three different channels.
Um, and that, you know, I think this connects to maybe tuning our antenna through three different channels as well. One is the channel of what's, what is the content of what someone's actually saying? What's the information they're, they're literally conveying. But the second is what's the emotion that they're conveying at the same time.
And the third is what actions are they taking while they're, while they're speaking with us as well. And most of us, I think, are drawn to one channel or the next or, or the other over another. I, for example, typically start by being drawn to the content of what somebody's saying. But we can train ourselves to listen through all three channels.
And we can literally triple the amount that we're hearing from, from, from people. Um, and so that's, that's part of what we talk about with listening to learn.
[00:20:18] Marco Ciappelli: Oh God, I want to have an hour conversation on this.
[00:20:21] Jeff Wetzler: Yes. Yeah,
[00:20:23] Marco Ciappelli: because, so as an Italian, you know, we're famous to speak with our hands. Right? And then very expressive.
And, uh, sometimes I go on different culture or in the age of Zoom, right? You know, you don't see that. We see, we are the presenter on the, on the news and you, you miss a lot. Just somebody crossing the legs or the way they move or the empathy into the conversation and knocking, you know, moving your head.
That's why it makes it so much easier to have a podcast when we can look at each other.
[00:21:01] Jeff Wetzler: That's right.
[00:21:02] Marco Ciappelli: I remember learning English at the beginning of my time, making the first phone call in English was tragic. I had no idea what. You know, when you learn a language that you don't have it, is it smiling? Is it moving their eyes?
Is it doing, Michael, he's just not understanding absolutely anything of what I said. So, I mean, this it's, it's really, really powerful to me. Um, when you look at somebody on stage on a, on a TED stage or a keynote, there is a lot in the way that they move.
[00:21:37] Jeff Wetzler: Absolutely. Right. And, and I think, especially in, in this day and age where we are, Interacting across cultures so much, um, that we can miss each other's signals because in one culture, this might mean some one thing, but it might mean something totally different in another culture as well.
There's some interesting research on how often people over rely on non verbal communication and get it wrong. Um, and they actually make the wrong inferences based on that. And so. Um, it's important to, to ask and to say, you know, this is, you know, this is what you're feeling right now. This is what, you know, how should I interpret this expression that you have on your face?
[00:22:15] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Double check. How many times we go by assumption, right?
[00:22:19] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly. Exactly. Even with me, sometimes when I'm thinking really hard. My face might, you know, be a little bit, look more very serious. And sometimes people think I must be angry with them.
Um,
but really, I'm just thinking really hard about what they have to say right now.
So you do have to check.
[00:22:37] Marco Ciappelli: Really, really, really good advice. That may be one of my favorite of all.
[00:22:41] Jeff Wetzler: The last, should I talk about the last step of the ask approach? Um, so this is, I think, I think this is the most important of all, um, which it's called reflect and reconnect. Um, and this is really what makes the difference between having the conversation and nothing happens versus having the conversation and we learn and change and take action.
Um, and this idea of reflection, I think is a lost art. Some people think that reflection is something that only, you know, monks do in a monastery or on a mountain, but really reflection is a, is a skill and a process that we can all do. And it's really about taking what do we hear from somebody else and turning it over in our minds in a structured way to say, how does this, how does this influence my thinking?
It's different in my, my own story based on what I heard. What steps can I take based on what I heard? And is there anything that I heard that I really want to take it at a very deep level to, to, to look at my deeper stuff, my assumptions about life, my biases, my ways of being, et cetera. Um, And if we can take what we heard from other people and really reflect and turn it through that way, oftentimes it helps to do that through journaling or with the help of a friend or a coach or sometimes even a therapist.
We can really get the, the most important wisdom out of other people. Um, but it's important to not just stop there. That's why I call it reflect and reconnect. It's essential to go back to the other person. And say, here's what I took from what you said. Um, because in doing that, you know, a, it's a way of acknowledging them and thanking them and letting them know that what they did mattered and that they really, you know, impacted us, but it's also a chance for us to correct.
If we got, if we took the wrong thing away for them, it gives them a chance to say, actually, I, I didn't mean for you to take this away. I didn't mean to say that kind of thing. Um, and it also just increases the chances. That they're going to want to continue to engage and share with us over time because it shows them that it was worthwhile to do that.
So that's, that's the last component of the Ask a Bird to reflect and reconnect.
[00:24:40] Marco Ciappelli: It may be also one of the hardest, maybe too. Um,
[00:24:45] Jeff Wetzler: I agree.
[00:24:46] Marco Ciappelli: I think because you're kind of like putting yourself on the line to really go back to that person and say, okay, did I really get it right? And again, maybe the fear can come in at that point and be like, I don't want to look like the person that didn't understand what he was trying to say.
Are you suggesting that re asking the same question may be possible and smart to do? Maybe from a different angle?
[00:25:13] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah, and I think I'm particularly saying, especially if they've answered your question already, I'm maybe saying to start by saying, here's what I heard, and here's how I made sense of it.
And here's what I took away from it, and here's how I'm going to change and grow. Here's how it's going to enrich myself. And I wanted to just share that with you, but also ask you, do you have reactions to that? And is there something more or different that you would want me to take away from our, you know, from our interaction as well?
[00:25:38] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, it's, it can be a very humbling moment to, to be.
[00:25:44] Jeff Wetzler: Absolutely. Yeah. I, as a leader, I've, I've tried to do that with others when they've shared feedback with me and it, and it can feel vulnerable. Um, it can feel scary because in some ways it's exposing, like I didn't know something and now I'm changing and I've been, I've reflected deeply on it.
But every time I do it. I'm consistently pleasantly surprised by people's reaction to it. They want to know that they've made a difference.
[00:26:08] Marco Ciappelli: And I, and I see all these five points, not having, of course, a life on his own, but they're all interconnected.
[00:26:14] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly, exactly.
[00:26:15] Marco Ciappelli: So there is a, it's kind of like you get to five, you start again, but then you, you throw curiosity in any one of these.
I mean, I'm looking at it right now. Yep. But they are all interconnected. They're
[00:26:27] Jeff Wetzler: interconnected. And, you know, just like any framework or model. It's never as simple as it looks like it is on paper. It's messier, but, but, but you're, I totally agree with you. These are, these are each five practices that we can master in isolation, but when we implement them, we put them together and they, and they interact.
[00:26:43] Marco Ciappelli: So I know that this is not, this is not the Redefining Society podcast where I talk about technology and society, but before we start talking, we said that maybe we will touch on AI, but also I really want to touch on, on AI. social media. Yeah. When, when our conversation, when our question or reaction may happen in front of many other people, followers in public.
And so you, I think you just become even more harsh and you know, social media are harsh.
[00:27:14] Jeff Wetzler: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, what's your
[00:27:16] Marco Ciappelli: take on that?
[00:27:18] Jeff Wetzler: Yeah. A couple of things. I mean, one is that I think that unfortunately social media too often makes it harder for us to be curious. Because the people that we follow and friend and like, um, tend to agree with us.
And so we end up in these echo chambers where we're just being reinforced of our own positions. Um, and that's, that's one of the killers of curiosity is that we're just surrounded by people who, who tell us and also put pressure on us to sort of perform something that agrees with them as well. Um, and then I, you know, and then I also think that when there is a disagreement, um, especially out in public, the whole thing is just more pressurized.
[00:27:57] Marco Ciappelli: And
[00:27:58] Jeff Wetzler: I would love to see more often people on social media just posing questions and saying, tell me more about what, what makes you think that? And thank you. I learned something from what you said. And just leave it at that. We don't have to fight it back.
[00:28:12] Marco Ciappelli: There is a lot of question, non question in social media.
[00:28:15] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly. Especially attack questions.
[00:28:17] Marco Ciappelli: It's not like. You don't agree with me? It's more like, you don't agree with me? What's wrong with you? Yeah,
[00:28:26] Jeff Wetzler: exactly.
[00:28:28] Marco Ciappelli: And there the tone of voice, right? That really changed the question.
[00:28:33] Jeff Wetzler: Yes, tone matters hugely. Yeah.
[00:28:36] Marco Ciappelli: How about AI? Let's, let's, let's get a little, a little sprinkle of that too.
[00:28:41] Jeff Wetzler: Yes. So, I mean, I would say that first of all, there's so many skills and tasks that AI is taking over and is able to do better in many cases than humans, but I don't think that asking questions and truly learning of one another is something that AI will ever be able to do in the same way that humans can do.
I think it is a uniquely human thing to do. Yeah. But what's cool and what I have found is that AI can actually help us do this better. Um, so if you put into CHAT GPT or any AI bot something like, I really am angry at my blank because, or I have, I think this politician is terrible. And then you put in this one question, what might I be missing?
What you can get back is all kinds of little provocations that will challenge you to get more curious. So that's one way I found it to be really helpful. It can also be very helpful if you put in, I'm frustrated about this, or I'm having a challenge with this person. What are some questions that I can ask the person?
And it will generate a whole set of questions, many of which you've never thought to ask. They won't all be perfect, but there's some really interesting questions there. And when I've done that, that I thought, wow, I never would have thought to ask this question. Um, so those are a couple ways that, that AI can actually help us do the thing that I think is most uniquely human.
[00:30:04] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, it's definitely not the best storyteller. That's for sure. Right. When it comes to creativity, I get actually really pissed at it, but I use it as brainstorming. Uh huh.
[00:30:14] Jeff Wetzler: And yeah, and then we can do the same way on the question and curiosity side as
[00:30:18] Marco Ciappelli: well. I have this conversational style. I, as you know, I didn't give you my question because I don't want to know, right?
I just want to have a conversation, whatever come in my mind. Hopefully it makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't. But if I wanted to, I could have get your bio, your book, feed it to CHAT GPT and say, give me 10 questions for Jeff. And they would have been pretty good. Yeah. But they would have been pretty dry too.
Exactly. But maybe one would have been like, Oh, okay. Yeah, maybe I can go with that. I didn't think about that one. I can spin it a little bit. Exactly.
[00:30:51] Jeff Wetzler: Exactly. That's
[00:30:52] Marco Ciappelli: a good approach. So what's your take on that, that using it as a teacher where I can see it's either, especially at the beginning, either you're on the one that refuse it, No way.
Not gonna come in my classroom. Or, yeah, I welcome it. Just do everything with it. Um, of course, truth usually is in between, but Yes. What's your take? I'm definitely
[00:31:18] Jeff Wetzler: not in the camp of just ban it. It's not good. Um, I just think that it's everywhere. And we can't avoid it. And, and, you know, I have two kids of my own.
I see them both using it in very creative ways. You know, my daughter uses it as a thought partner for herself and for essays, like she, you know, not to write the essay for her, but just to help her think through ideas and, you know, expand her thinking. And I think that's great. And so if we were to ban that, we would take away, I think, what's a, what's a really valuable tool.
My son uses it a lot for coding. He actually uses it to practice his Spanish. He talks back, you know, back and forth with it as well. Um, obviously there's ethical issues and we don't want kids just using it to write their essays and we've got to continue to help kids think for themselves and write for themselves, et cetera.
But I'm in, I'm in the, I'm in the camp and this is what my organization Transcend thinks a lot about when we think about education, innovation of how can we use it for good?
[00:32:09] Marco Ciappelli: Hmm. Very cool. Uh, I would love for you to come back on my other show and we can dig deeper into I'd love that. To the Transcend.
Transcend and, and the use of education. And I mean, it's all about changing society and redefining. We can't stick with the same rule while the tools of different Exactly. Exactly.
[00:32:33] Jeff Wetzler: Let's do that. So
[00:32:33] Marco Ciappelli: that, that's an open invitation and I would love to do that. To end this conversation, there is a question I usually ask, which is.
Um, When you use a book, who, who do you have in mind? And who do you think, given that usually the answer is everybody. So don't give me that answer. But when you were writing the book, who, who was your audience? Who, who were you? I was
[00:33:01] Jeff Wetzler: mostly, I mean, I do think that anyone who interacts with people has something to learn from people around them, but yeah, I was mostly writing it for people in organizations.
Um, so people who are either leaders or managers, whether, whether that means they have formal authority or not, um, who really want to unlock the collective intelligence, the collective genius of the people around them and the people in their culture of organizations.
[00:33:26] Marco Ciappelli: Very cool. Very cool. So the last question is, did I ask the right questions?
[00:33:33] Jeff Wetzler: You asked beautiful questions. I love your questions, especially when you were asking for examples and stories and all of it. It was a real pleasure.
[00:33:40] Marco Ciappelli: Okay. We, we, we didn't work this before. So I hope this is spontaneous. Jeff, I really appreciate this so much that I can I can't wait to read the book. I would definitely do that.
It's in my, you know, Sociology of Communication and Interaction with People. It's what I, what I love and, uh, definitely looking forward to this. Uh, for everybody listening, uh, there will be all the notes to connect with Jeff, his website, uh, link to the book, and, uh, anything that Jeff wants to share with us.
And, uh, probably while you're listening to this, it's just going to be a few days. before the book is out. And if you're listening to this after, because it's not that I'm going to remove it, then, uh, you can probably buy the book. Exactly. That's great. Jeff, a real pleasure.
[00:34:31] Jeff Wetzler: Thank you, Marco. I love this conversation.
Look forward to more. Appreciate you having me on.
[00:34:35] Marco Ciappelli: All right. Everybody stay tuned. Keep that antenna tuned in the right direction and, uh, ask questions and think. That's, that's a good thing. Bye bye, everybody.