In this episode of Audio Signals Podcast, I reconnect with Stephen Jay Schwartz to delve into the multifaceted world of storytelling, discussing his career, his approach to writing, and the depth of his experiences.
Guest: Stephen Jay Schwartz,
Website | https://www.stephenjayschwartz.com/
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Hello, fellow storytellers! I'm excited to bring you another fascinating episode of Audio Signals Podcast. Today, we journey through the layers of storytelling with my good friend and talented author, Stephen Jay Schwartz. Our conversation brings back old memories, revisits his celebrated works like Boulevard, and unpacks the intricate art of writing.
From Coffee Shop Chats to Bestsellers
Reconnecting with Stephen brought a wave of memories from the days we’d meet at a coffee shop in South Bay, Los Angeles, bouncing ideas over countless cups of coffee. Stephen and I share a unique bond, having lived through defining chapters that shaped our creative paths. His journey from a Hollywood story editor and development executive to a bestselling author is nothing short of inspiring.
The Intersection of Music, Film, and Writing
Stephen’s storytelling prowess is intertwined with his love for music and film, which heavily influences his writing style. His approach to rhythm in prose is like composing a symphony. As we explored his craft, Stephen described how writing screenplays refined his ability to tell a story concisely—a skill that transitioned seamlessly into his novels.
A Look into the World of Boulevard
Stephen’s book Boulevard dives deep into the hard-boiled genre, weaving a story-within-a-story. The protagonist’s personal struggles create a resonant narrative, enriched by Stephen's own life experiences, lending authenticity to the story.
Hard-Boiled Noir and the Craft of Plotting
Stephen’s fascination with intense, dark narratives led us to discuss genres like hard-boiled and noir. His skill in balancing intricate plots with nuanced character development shines through. Hearing how he carefully plots each story, likening the process to striking musical notes, was nothing short of captivating.
Rhythm and Melody in Words
A highlight of our conversation was Stephen’s view on the musicality of writing. He explained how sentences carry rhythm, much like a piece of music, infusing a harmonic flow that elevates the reading experience. This glimpse into his process offered an inspiring new perspective on the art of writing.
The Challenges of New Beginnings
Venturing into new creative waters, Stephen shared insights into his upcoming dystopian novel set in 2099. Crafting a fresh protagonist and exploring unfamiliar genres presented new challenges, but his passion for storytelling remains at the forefront as he navigates this terrain.
A Conversation to Remember
I hope this episode leaves you as inspired as I am. Stephen's journey from Hollywood to the world of novels underscores the power of authentic storytelling. I look forward to diving even deeper into his perspective in future episodes, exploring the storytelling nuances that continue to captivate audiences worldwide.
Stay tuned, subscribe for more insightful stories, and remember: every story has a rhythm waiting to be discovered.
About the Book
LAPD detective Hayden Glass has only one vice…the girls who work the streets he’s vowed to protect.
Hayden Glass never had it easy. He fought hard for everything he got, hounded by a shame that he could never quite define or conquer. Now a Los Angeles Police Department Robbery-Homicide detective, Glass is still haunted by the scars that left a permanent void in his soul. He deals with it the only way he can . . . . he cruises Sunset Boulevard, picking up prostitutes. Hayden Glass is a sex addict.
Called to investigate a heinous crime scene involving the niece of a prominent L.A. politician, Glass is quickly overwhelmed by the media spotlight. When new murders arise, Glass sees a link where no one else does, realizing that this is the work of a vicious, sadistic sexual predator.
But the link, seen through Hayden’s eyes, reveals the darkest connection…Hayden himself.
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Resources
Boulevard (Book): https://www.stephenjayschwartz.com/boulevard/
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Book | Boulevard and Beyond | Exploring the Art of Storytelling with Best Selling Author Stephen Jay Schwartz | Audio Signals Podcast With Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Audio Signals podcast, where we talk about storytelling, storytellers, and stories in general. So that include, um, anything, music, cinema, photography, any sort of art, and of course, music. Most of my guests are writers, but as I learned, many writers are not just writers, they have other lives and, uh, and that's what make it interesting sometimes what they write about.
Now, this is, I'm very excited about this, this episode because I'm reconnecting to Steven. Jay Schwartz, which as you're watching the video, you can see is there. If you're not watching, you can hear in a couple of seconds, because I have to say we used to know each other and we still know each other, obviously, but since the time of hanging out at a coffee shop in the South Bay of Los Angeles.
Uh, writing, working, stepping outside with a cup of coffee and, uh, and having a good old chat and getting to know each other. So we just reconnected a few years later. I'm not going to say how many because it's going to age us a little bit, but I'm super excited. Uh, Steven, So happy to have you on the show.
[00:01:17] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Thank you. Thank you, Marco. I'm very happy that you, that you reached out to me too. And, uh, as I mentioned earlier, we both got the black shirt, t shirt memo.
[00:01:25] Marco Ciappelli: Yep. We got that. We got that. Is that a, is that a writer or a storyteller thing? I think it's a storyteller thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know,
[00:01:34] Stephen Jay Schwartz: I also wanted to mention, um, you know, there's something about Marco that I, That he's played a very, um, pivotal role for me, um, when I was, I had my first novel out, um, because he's the only guy I knew that was Italian and that, that could read and speak Italian.
And, um, I had, uh, you know, my book Boulevard came out years ago and, uh, I had got one international deal and it was, it was in Italy. So they did an Italian version of my book, but I had no idea what, It was, if it was a true, you know, translation, you know how good a translation it was, it could have been terrible, you know?
And so I had, uh, Marco read both the English version and the Italian version, and he said, he said they did a good adaptation, good translation of the book.
[00:02:15] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And I, I remember my, my mom actually did read it too. I remember that too. Yeah. You. You have that feedback as well. And you don't know this. Uh, the listener do know this, but my mom started writing not too long ago.
[00:02:28] Stephen Jay Schwartz: That's awesome.
[00:02:29] Marco Ciappelli: Like in her seventies, short stories for kids. I'm helping her with that. I'm having a great time because when you talk about fantasy, you really don't have parameters and boxes to stay in. So it's kind of fun, very creative. And, uh, who knows, maybe she was inspired by being surrounded by it.
Are the writers real writers? You're a real writer. Come on. Let's talk about that. Okay, let's talk about that. Okay, a little bit about yourself. Honestly, your biography. It's it's really interesting. Like you said, I had the opportunity to talk about a lot of these things a while back, but, uh, Who is Stephen J. Schwartz, you don't need to get philosophical, but that's the question.
[00:03:16] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Well, if you've got 35 years, I can tell you , ,
[00:03:20] Marco Ciappelli: you can come back. I dunno. For 35 years,
[00:03:22] Stephen Jay Schwartz: I'll come. That's, um, well, um, yeah, I say a storyteller since I was a kid and I started writing. I wrote my first short story called Sammy the Dinosaur when I was, I don't know, eight years old or something and, you know, and my mom sent it out to Reader's Digest and it was, uh, it was rejected immediately upon submission.
So, deservedly so. Um, And then, uh, I've always, I always wrote, you know, as I, as I grew up and I also had a very strong interest in film and filmmaking and so, and music. So there are two things that I was focused on growing up was, um, was studying music, playing jazz, saxophone, um, and also filmmaking. And I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
So there's no real way that I could get a good film education in Albuquerque. Back in the day, I was making films using super eight cameras, you know, silent and had to record the, the, uh, audio separately and sync them up with the projector and the sound when I, when I, when I exhibited the stuff and, you know, it was just a lot of kind of fun, crazy stuff that I did, um, with my other buddies making films, but when it came time to go to college, I was Um, I, uh, I decided I would probably go into music since it was a better instruction in music and I went to a jazz school in Texas and I spent one year, um, as a jazz studies major, um, you know, solo saxophone.
Um, and that's kind of where I learned that I really wanted to go into, into storytelling, um, cause music didn't really tell enough of the story. It was just, you know, musicians could hear the story, uh, that other musicians would tell, let's say, in references to other musical tunes. You could be playing a jazz song, um, you could be playing, um, references to different jazz songs, and other musicians in the crowd would laugh, you know, they're like, oh, I got that reference, you know, it's like, you can kind of communicate with the audience.
Um, but I wanted to really communicate with the audience, and I felt through writing and filmmaking, I Um, you could tell your story and you can bring an audience along with you through an entire journey that's like inside your head. So I left music school. I went to move to California. I continued with my education ultimately.
Um went to Cal State Northridge and studied film Uh and graduated from there and began making short films in 16 millimeter and 35 millimeter. Back again back in the day before video. Um, back when making a short 35 millimeter film would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, um, which I would get donated, you know, every single aspect I would get donated.
You know, the film was donated. The negative cutting was donated. The cast and crew donated their time. Um, the cameras we got donated from Panavision. You just, everyone donated. And then I would use Whatever remainder cash I needed, I would cash advance my credit cards to get these films off the ground.
There's a lot to tell, you know, in my history. Um, ultimately I, um, I ended up working for a film director named Wolfgang Petersen as a development executive. So I started off as an assistant, then I became a story editor, and then as director of development. Wolfgang directed Das Boot, which is one of my top ten films of all time.
Um, he directed Das Boot, he directed In the Line of Fire with Clint Eastwood, um, Air Force One with Harrison Ford, um, Outbreak, uh, The Perfect Storm, Troy, um, The never ending story. You know, he just, he had a great career. Um, he was considered one of the top thriller directors of the, uh, of the 90s. Um, and that's really when I was working with him.
Uh, and so, so I did that for a while and then I, but then it was all consuming. You know, it was 24 7, uh, reading scripts and writing notes and working with, um, writers to realize their screenplay. Uh, and so finally, uh, it's one point after about five years, I, uh, I left that so that I could write full time and I, uh, got in the Writer's Guild and I wrote, you know, a couple of screenplays and then I was kind of like, Stuck out there with a wife and a couple of kids and, and without any writing assignments and ended up getting a day job and just making the decision that I would, I would just, I would not try to marry my passion with my business, you know, because it was kind of killing.
The, the inspiration to write, you know, trying to sell your screenplay was kind of killing my inspiration as, as a storyteller for a lot of reasons. We can talk about those too, but so I got a day job outside of the industry as a salesperson and then, um. And then I decided I was going to start writing novels.
And, um, and I wrote the first novel, Boulevard. And because I had written about 12 feature screenplays before Boulevard, I, my first novel didn't look like a first novel. It looked like a very polished novel. Um, because I had, I'd paid my dues and I'd learned what I needed to learn. I had the three act structure, you know, I'd read thousands of thriller screenplays.
And so I was really prepared to write the novel. Um, so the first novel sold, um, right away and it became an LA Times bestseller, um, uh, within the first year. First week it was out, which is really cool, and it got me a two book deal, so I wrote Boulevard and then a sequel to it called Beat. But I, um, I really enjoyed writing the novel and, and communicating story through the novel because finally the story I wanted to tell was available.
For people to participate in when you write a screenplay, the only way you can do that is if your screenplay gets made into a movie, which is really rare, you know, but a novel lands in someone's hands and they begin the journey immediately.
[00:08:58] Marco Ciappelli: Maybe, maybe if you're lucky enough, it turns into a movie as well, but it's the other way around.
[00:09:05] Stephen Jay Schwartz: And that is a smart way to do it because then you, then you own a property, you know, and, uh, and that, like I own Boulevard and Beat and, and we've had many attempts to try to get that made into a TV series or, or, or a feature film. And, um, options have been made and the options have returned to me again.
Um, so someday the things that I own the property, so someday it could be 20 years from now, someone might come around and say, I want to turn this into a TV series and then it's back up and, you know, In the game, right?
[00:09:36] Marco Ciappelli: I want I want to make it like a preface here Which is we already knowing each other and me knowing your background.
I already opted you for a sequel to this episode Yep Like the movie right because we can talk about Many things that you just pointed out I mean we're talking about the connection with music the connection with movies and and and writing screenplay Which i'm probably going to go there today like the difference between writing screenplay versus writing You A book because it's something that interests me quite a bit, but the bottom line is is all storytelling.
We're all made of Our past. I mean we all the thing I like to look back and I say, you know, I got various several lives in term of what I focus my expertise in and what I work on but I think if you can keep it in the realm of The core of what you love You kind of then become the the consequence of all your experience So my point is all the things you're talking about are probably what made you the writer that you are today And you comment on that but also tell me and tell the audience about the genre that you write because it's very specific it's Art Boyle.
Can I go there? Yeah. Art Boyle, yeah. And how did you decide to focus on that? Because I read the book. I read many comments from other writers in the genre. And some are like, wow, this is as good as Art Boyle gets. So maybe a definition of what that is, definition of noir genre, and how you got it. A lot of questions here.
You pick where you want to go.
[00:11:23] Stephen Jay Schwartz: I'll see what I can pick up on that. Um, hard boiled. Um, you know, I've always been interested in just dark subject matter that's really biting and intense. Like if you're going to talk about movies, it would be taxi driver, you know, or seven, you know, um, Even Apocalypse Now, um, things, films that, that, um, that are, that are very intense and, um, uh, create a, um, uh, an experience, uh, for the, for the reader that, that, that pushes the envelope.
Um, so for whatever reason, you know, I had some, um, demons to expel, I guess. And, and, you know, when you write, you can do that on a page and you don't have to actually go out and, and be a serial killer. You can write the serial killer, right? So, um, So that's what, you know, I, uh, that I, and plus also I had, you know, I'd read thousands of screenplays that tend to be thriller screenplays.
So, so that kind of was embedded into my psyche, you know, writing stories like that, um, as far as hard boiled, um, you know, they talk about noir, um, you know, it's kind of a period of, um, uh, Novel writing, uh, from the early, you know, the 30s and 40s, I guess, of the time period, um, and, uh, and also film of the 40s.
Um, I, I really didn't know that I was writing, I didn't know what I was writing when I started writing Boulevard. Um, I didn't realize it was going to be a, kind of a really tough, hard boiled noir novel. I just wrote what I wanted to see, what I wanted to read, and I was pleasing myself. That was something that I wanted to do, and I wasn't thinking about the market.
Um, in fact, after I had written the book, sold the book, worked with my editor at the publishing house for a number of months, before the book was about to be released, my editor said, Okay, so Now we have to make a decision. Are you, is this going to go in the, the fiction section of the bookstore or the mystery thriller section of the bookstore?
And I said, I don't know. What is it? Is it fiction? I don't know. I, yeah. And he said, well, let's see. He said, well, the market is, you know, the, the mystery thriller readers tend to be more loyal to their, to their, Authors, you know, and they'll read more from that, that author. And I said, well, let's go Mystery Thriller then.
And, and which was actually exactly where it should have been, you know, could have been Bitchin 2 Bib. I probably would have maybe lost some readers because of that. Um, so, um, as far as kind of where it came from, you know, I had some dark, uh, uh, events in my life. My father committed suicide when I was 20 years old.
Um, I'd always been, you know, everything I've done, you know, I've kind of like, Pushed up against that and explored that in my writing, um, my, uh, my first film that I made when I was in college was called Meditations on a Suicide. And that was just a short film that really depicted a son and a father in two rooms.
And it was basically silent and German expressionist in the way it was shot. Um, and very intense and very dark and painful. It was just all pain. Um, and, uh, and I, and I, You know, I kind of touch upon that a bit. You know, I have an old time friend who, who's seen all my films and stuff. And when my first, when Boulevard came out, I asked him about what he thought about the book and he said, it looks like you're still searching for your father.
I said, okay, I get that. I can see that, you know, there's a character who has a relationship with his father and the protagonist, but, um. But I don't really, you know, I know exactly where it came from. I wanted to, I wanted to do a detective story. That was very dark and intense, like seven. Um, and I wanted the character to have a fault that was Not an alcoholic, not a drug addict, but something, something that was, it was, uh, it was maybe misunderstood.
And so, um, you know, I gave him a sex addiction and he's struggling with the sex addiction and, and he goes to 12 step meetings and he has a sponsor and he's trying to be a better person, but when times get tough and he, you know, and, and he feels anxious, he goes out and picks up a prostitute or he goes to strip club or he goes to a massage parlor.
And then he, then he's back down to day one again in his time,
you know, and
[00:15:32] Stephen Jay Schwartz: he has to try to make that up again, you know, and so I wanted to see the character that was struggling to be a better person, but considers himself to be a piece of shit, you know, in a sense, in his own mind, but his actions are heroic.
Although he doesn't really recognize it. And then I think that's what the readers kind of tapped into is that here's a guy who thinks he's a shit, um, but he's willing to sacrifice himself all along the line for others. So there's really something heroic about his nature.
[00:16:07] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, it sounds like it. And like I said, in the comments and the reviews that you got, I think like you nailed it in a very unique way. And here's the thing. I've talked to other people that for some reason people love writing. About mystery and detective stories.
Yeah,
I personally it it's a overwhelming the idea to plot a mystery To me i'm more of a if I write something i'll just start with a general idea and then I see where it goes So one of the question maybe if you're like a plotter or a panzer We can go there with that But I have noticed that there is a connection always in trying to create a story within the story which you just You So it's not just the character that is resolving a mystery, which is pretty way pretty standard to do it, but it's also having a conflict in within.
And that makes the character very interesting. And then you can twist it and turn it and make it even more complicated, which sounds like the things that you do. The reason why you think that is important.
[00:17:29] Stephen Jay Schwartz: To have the plot and then the internal plot. Yeah, the
[00:17:32] Marco Ciappelli: story and the story.
[00:17:33] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Well, it connects, it connects to the reader, uh, in a way that just plot can't.
Plot, anyone can write a plot. I mean, it's not an easy thing to do. I mean, you have to, it's difficult. It's a difficult thing to actually create a believable plot. It takes a lot of time. A lot. I do a lot of rewriting, a lot of outlines. I'm definitely a plotter, not a pantster. Pantster is writing.
[00:17:54] Marco Ciappelli: That's the answer right there.
Yeah.
[00:17:56] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Yeah. Writing, writing by the seat of your pants is when you just sit down and write and say, let's see what happens, which I try to do. And it always gets me into trouble. You know, I have to sit and I have to write an outline and then I have to rewrite the outline and rewrite the outline and rewrite the outline and start the book doing the thing.
Fuck up in the book and go back and rewrite the outline and then go back to the book. It's just, it's, it's painful. But, um, but the, once you get the plot, I mean, if you don't have some kind of internal journey, then you're probably not going to connect to the reader because every story, um, if you, the more personal you make the story, the more universal the story is, you know, like the more,
[00:18:36] Marco Ciappelli: Which is almost a paradox.
[00:18:38] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Yeah,
[00:18:39] Marco Ciappelli: right. It is. If it's so personal and so unique, how is it going to apply to so many readers?
[00:18:47] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Well, because everyone, like if I write about addiction, um, you know, the reader may not be a sex addict, reader might be a sex addict. So immediately the writer, the reader is, is experiencing that connection.
But the reader might be an alcoholic, the reader might have a drug addiction, the reader might be a workaholic, the reader might have eating disorders, whatever. So the process is, is, And, um, and if not, then the reader has a friend or a brother or a sister or mother or father who has one of these addictions, you know, it's just so ubiquitous that people have this, that, um, whatever personal journey I create for this character going through his process of therapy and 12 set meetings and falling off the wagon and all that stuff.
It connects. No matter what they're experiencing and whether whether they experience it, whether their family members are experiencing it, they understand it. And that's what worked for Boulevard and that and beat because it's a series. And so that's what works for that character. Very difficult to try to.
Recreate that in the next, like the novel I'm writing now is completely different. It's not in, it's not in the, um, you know, current contemporary crime fiction genre, it's dystopian set in 2099 with a female protagonist, everything. I made it as difficult as I possibly can for myself, just by mistake, you know, it's so hard because I'm trying to create that internal journey for a, you Four year old female, you know, in the future, you know, and it's, and it's, it's been more of a struggle.
[00:20:24] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, let's talk about that. Um, it's, is it easy to develop the same character? I mean, you see, I don't know, I can say, Sherlock Holmes, I can change James Bond, I can say many people that that are, you know, Uh, the protagonist of never ending stories, but they are still the same character. They develop in a different way.
Maybe they grow. And is it easier to, to use the same character or is that the point that you're just squeezing too much out of it?
[00:21:01] Stephen Jay Schwartz: No, I think you can always, it's, and that's why there's so many series. That's why, you know, Michael Connelly has the Bosch series and it goes on for, you know, You know, dozens of novels and it will never end because it's his journey.
He's tapping his own growth in his own life and he can, he can pull from, from his own experiences. I could write, uh, Hayden Glass, who's the protagonist for Boulevard and B forever. And I can always tap into that. And it's, I understand his journey. It's very similar to my own journey, you know? So it's like, I can tap into my own feelings and I can write that character and it will be believable.
Um, Every time you go into a new series, and it may not start off as a series, it just kind of starts off as a standalone, the next book. And like what I'm doing now, it's just a new everything. That is, um, I have to create that connection with the new protagonist in her world. And hopefully, I will manage to do that by the end of the book, and it will lend itself to a, another, you know, You know, a sequel and then a series.
And now you kind of, let's say I've nailed that character and I can always go back in and write that character's journey. Um, once you've got a character set up, that, that's a lot of the hard work is just getting that character set up and writing, I believe is all about character story is all about character.
You know, it's like, what would the character do if thrown into this situation?
[00:22:22] Marco Ciappelli: Uh,
[00:22:22] Stephen Jay Schwartz: and now that's what your story is, is what that character would do.
[00:22:27] Marco Ciappelli: That sounds to me, it's like, even if you're a plotter or you're really, you know where you're going all the time, but they, they say, sometimes your character brings you somewhere that you follow is because it's not that you just write on a white paper.
It's just you, you think as if you were the character and you, and you, and he can bring you physically. Mentally in a completely different direction, maybe like it. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:22:56] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Right. Yeah, that's what's fun about the writing. Yeah,
[00:22:58] Marco Ciappelli: right. How how writing All the script and adapting and and being in the movie industry.
Let's start making the connection there Has influenced the way, I mean, you say it was a big advantage in having that experience and being able to deliver right away with your first book, but is that a way that like a style of writing that that it's. Yeah,
[00:23:28] Stephen Jay Schwartz: I mean, the way it connects is that, um, uh, you are able writing screenplays forces you to write an entire, uh, um, story in a very short amount of time.
I mean, you're going to be about 110 pages, so it's got to be stripped down tight. It's more like a poem, you know, like a screenplay is like a poem. You know, on film, because everything is visual, you know, it's basically dialogue and tight, uh, descriptions of things, um, tight dialogue too, and just minimizing, minimizing, minimizing, because everything's going to be told through the camera lens, and it's something that's difficult for people as writers to accept, that they have to be so minimal, because it's a different genre, it's not writing, it's, it's going to be film ultimately, um, so, you know.
Learning to write a screenplay teaches you, um, how to, how to self edit, how to edit yourself, how to tighten your story. It teaches you how to enter a scene late and leave a scene early so that you're not boring your, your reader.
[00:24:29] Marco Ciappelli: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Define that.
[00:24:31] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Um, if you, if you, uh, In a film generally, or in any story basically, you don't want to start the very beginning of a scene.
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's complicated to really describe, but that's why I asked you to explain it. Yeah, um, if you, because you're telling too much. It's like what you're, a lot of what you write when you're first starting to write is just like preamble. It's like you're writing for yourself so that you understand where you're at, who the characters are, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then. And then you write it all the way out to the very end of it. Like it's, it's like, it's like your first draft. This is what your first draft usually looks like. Then you go in and you say, that scene is very long. What's, what's really the meat of that scene? What's the most important part of this long scene I've just written?
Well, it's kind of from here. Which eliminates the first part to over here, which eliminates that last part. That's really what's going on in the scene. So I'm going to cut into this, um, late and exit early so that I keep momentum, you know, a certain amount of momentum and pacing in, in the overall storytelling.
So that, so writing a screenplay, you learn that you have to learn that pretty quick, you know, to, to be able to cut in. I, it's funny. I've wrote a screenplay for a producer when I was in college and, um, and I didn't know some of the terms. And, and so I had written the screenplay and he wrote down cut to the chase, you know, in one of the, one, one's called cut to the chase and I'm thinking, fuck the chasing is like three scenes away.
Why does he want me to cut it to the chase? It's like, no, one's going to understand how we suddenly got into the chasing. And he had to say, no, it means. Get to the point, , you know, get to the point. I get it. Get to the point
[00:26:11] Marco Ciappelli: it happened that there was a chase in the movie. It happened to be,
[00:26:14] Stephen Jay Schwartz: well it was one of those scripts, you know, so , that's funny.
Um, but, um, so, you know, you learn these things from writing, you know, writing screenplays, reading thousands of screenplays. So that definitely gave me a huge advantage. Also, the three act structure, you know, um, a screenplay is gonna be. First act, second act, third act. You really learn to identify what happens in the first act.
You learn how to identify, you know, the second act and then how to get to the third act with the climax. So I just took those things that I learned from screenplays and applied it to a novel. And, you know, I had. Novelist friends who said, said, how did you, how did you plot that? You know, it's like, you know, it was so difficult to make that plot.
Well, it's, it's kind of classic screenwriting modeling to be able to do that. Just do it into a novel, but that, you know, for a lot of authors, that's not a very exciting thing to write because they want to take the journey, as you mentioned, and right by the seat of their pants. And where's my, my, my protagonist going to take me and, and.
You can do that. I enjoy doing that. Like, where am I going? But then I always have to stop at some point because I've written myself into a corner that I can't get out of because I hadn't thought about it ahead of time. And then I have to go back and I throw, I have to throw out a lot of writing that was good, that was fun to do, just gone.
No, never be seen again. You know, um, and so I chose, I choose to, to save that special writing for when I have an outline. Because once I have an outline, I've outlined scene to scene, now I have the freedom to pan out that chapter. But I have parameters. I know where I need to start and I know where I need to end.
But there's still room for the character to do his own thing.
[00:27:52] Marco Ciappelli: You cannot decorate, add in decoration on the structure that is already, is already
[00:27:57] Stephen Jay Schwartz: there. Well you can't, yeah, you can, you can add. A lot more depth. And if you've changed so much in that scene, you go back to your, your, your. Your outline and say, you know what?
I'm going to change a few things around here because what I just wrote in this scene Took me away from the outline a bit, but I like where it's going So now i'm going to kind of play with the outline a little bit to see where it takes me
[00:28:19] Marco Ciappelli: So what i'm trying to do here is to create an outline of Many different things kind of plotting because I'm not gonna ask any more about this because we could talk about this in another episode and kind of dive deep, you know, dive deep into that deep diving into this so I want to spend the last few minutes of these.
In connecting also, we connected with the movie industry, with the writing, the script and, and your personal experience, the music. So I said the beginning of a video that you have on the website where you have given a lectures on, you show a picture of yourself when you're a kid. Right. I remember that says, uh, tomorrow you bring an instrument and, uh, whatever is in the house and it happened to be a clarinet for you.
So I said, I did my homework and then from there, you know, you, you, and you start going into the rhythmic of music. You actually show notes, octave and, and, and, and different metrics of music that. Then you apply it to the writing. Um, tell me about that in, in a few words, and then we'll do an entire episode on that.
Cause I find it fascinating.
[00:29:36] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Yeah, it's cool. I wish more people would see that because I think people when they see that, that the lecture, it connects with both writers and musicians. Um, but well, when you write a sentence, um, you've written something that is musical, whether you want it, will you like it or not, you've written something that has rhythm.
You know, a sentence, you know, it, uh, it has a, it has a structure, it has a meter to it, and it has a kind of an ending of each sentence. So if you have a musical ear and you play music, um, you can recognize the beats in that sentence. And, um, and I've kind of recognized, and I wish I had some examples I can go through, but which I do in the lecture, but, um, it's, uh, you, there, there are, there are words that create natural triplets.
And then words that create natural half notes and accents and, and, and, and they're, it's not going up and down harmonically on a musical range, but it's going rhythmically and, um, and a number of writers like James Joyce and Jack Kerouac and, and, you know, mostly good, a lot of really, really great writers.
Um, throughout history, um, have had a musical background and you can hear it in their, in their sentences. And when you have a clunky sentence, when you've written a clunky sentence and you've written a number of clunky sentences, so now you have a clunky paragraph, um, it's, uh, you can look at that paragraph and say, well, it's, it's musically clunky.
So why don't I, why don't I. Find words that have, um, that, that, um, that have a rhythm and, you know, a sequence of words that are onomatopoeia or something, you know, there's a, there's a lot of things you can do to, to, Create a rhythmic, musical, poetic sentence. And, um, to me that came kind of natural. I had to go back and analyze it to see what I was doing, but it came kind of natural and I think it became, it came from my, my musical upbringing.
But if you, if you don't have a musical upbringing, or if you have, if you pay attention to that in your writing, you can, um, you can write rhythmically so that, that there's a, You know, a crescendo, natural crescendo to your sentence, and then some staccato, you know, and then, and then you can end your paragraph with a whole note in a sentence, you know, that just, it just, it gives you this, this wonderful feeling of, of having experienced Um, some type of musicality along with the poetry of the words.
So you can write a hard boiled dark novel that can be musical and poetic at the same time.
[00:32:11] Marco Ciappelli: And you can go heavy metal or you can go classical or jazz or whatever you want. Yeah,
yeah.
[00:32:17] Marco Ciappelli: No, I, I agree with that. Um, but you do that. Do you do that while you're writing the, at the beginning or you take the time after you're done to make changes to that?
[00:32:30] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Actually it's kind of a bit of both. Generally, um, Before I even know what I'm writing, I'm thinking about it musically. I'm, I'm, I'm kind of like, as I sit down to write, I'm, I'm thinking, I'm not consciously thinking about music, but I'm, I'm trying to write a sentence that, that, that, that has a musical sound to it.
So the words, oftentimes, this can be a very creative process because the words I come up with aren't necessarily the words that you would put into that, into that sentence. But I, I think, you know, that sounds good. It sounds nice. Um, and I'll find a way to kind of reinterpret the sentence so that it works, um, so that I can use the melodic phrase.
Um, so I just kind of go into a little mode where I'm just kind of letting the music come through the writing. Um, and then when I'm done with the whole book, after I've written a book, after I spent years, whatever, writing and rewriting. When I'm on my very last draft, I go through the whole thing again and I try to find ways to make it, to make it kind of musical.
I try to replace words, find new words, find different ways to make sentences that maybe I didn't realize were a little bit clunky, you know. Sometimes you think you're doing a really good job and then you come back to, you know, to reading a passage after a couple of months. Which I did just recently and I had this one, I'd never changed this one big section of my new novel because I thought it was going exactly where I wanted to go.
I'd never changed it and I went back and re read it as I came to it in this draft. And I thought, wow, that's, there's a lot of clunky stuff in there. So, you know, so it was, it was what I considered to be polished. But then I realized, okay, now I'm going to do the musical version of that, Polish, and make it really comfortable to read so that it is so that so that it reads musically.
[00:34:13] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And we're not talking about poetry, we're not talking about rhythmics and rhymes and that kind of thing. Writing, but you're talking about having something that when you read it, it has a tone and it has the smooth and, and that, and I, I love that because sometimes I listen to a lot of audiobook, like as much as I like reading lately, if I want to consume books, it's going to be A lot of audio.
So the reader, very important to me, the way that I get into that read it make, but I wonder sometimes, is this how the writer would read it? So then I go into somebody like Neil Gaiman, which reads his own stuff. And I'm like, yeah, he's probably reading it the way that you're supposed to. You know, the way you wrote it, um, do you find yourself in a, in a conflict when you think about, okay, I'm going to write it this way, but what if the reader, it's, it doesn't
[00:35:20] Stephen Jay Schwartz: get the rhythm.
Yeah.
[00:35:21] Marco Ciappelli: What if it doesn't do that or if you turn it into an audio book, how do you deal with that?
[00:35:28] Stephen Jay Schwartz: I don't really think of that. I think that, um, it reads. If you've written it rhythmically, it's gonna read that way. It's, it's just, uh, I mean, if someone has an accent, maybe when they read it, they may not have the same meter that you've written,
[00:35:43] Marco Ciappelli: but, but it will work.
Right. But, but yeah,
[00:35:46] Stephen Jay Schwartz: it, it's designed to do that. And it's a subtle thing too. It's not like you're really dragging out of the vows of a word. It's just if you've got a consonant followed by the vow. And then a consonant is going to go, you know, taught, taught or whatever. It's going to have that it's right there.
You've got that kind of rhythm and you've got that, um, uh, syncopation or whatever you've got in there. So, so I don't, and when I've heard other people read, when I read it, I catch it. Of course, cause it's in my head or, you know, I've had audio books done by, um. Uh, by this wonderful professional actor and does books, audiobooks named Ray Porter, and he catches it all.
He gets it. It's nice to, I love hearing someone else read, read it. You know, the way I hear it in my head, it's just like very, it's kind of, when I finish.
[00:36:30] Marco Ciappelli: Maybe it's a little bit different, but it's, that's the beauty of it.
[00:36:36] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Well, it's different because the guy is a professional. I mean, I, I wanted to read my audio books, you know, when I got an audio deal, I was all excited and I said, I'd be reading it.
My agent said, no, you know, they have people who do that. And I said, no, no, I want to do it. He said, well, you're going to have to audition for it. So I said, okay. So I went and I cut a tape of me reading from Boulevard and I submitted it to the audio book company. And the owner of the company wrote back, you know, and said, Dear Mr.
Schwartz, you have a very lovely voice. However, You
[00:37:04] Marco Ciappelli: do, he's very radio. He's very radio, he has a radio voice.
[00:37:08] Stephen Jay Schwartz: But it's not, I mean, the people that they got, the guy that does the reading is an actor, and he's And he's fantastic. And once I heard him reading, I thought, Oh, I get it. I get it. Yeah, I can't do that.
[00:37:20] Marco Ciappelli: That's, that's, that's really cool. I was talking to a musician the other day, Jets musician, and he told me something like, when you, when you, when you interpret a piece of music, you tell people, Many different stories because it's one is how you reinterpret that music. Let's say it's not your music. It was talking about Thelonious Monk and, uh, and Ruby, uh, that beautiful song and, and how he, when he, he plays it, he adds stuff, but it's like, that's one story, but that this story of how the reader, I mean, the listener in this case is going to receive it and reinterpret it based on his mood.
Maybe basing what he's doing, maybe he's driving, maybe he's having a chilling night with a tea and on a couch and even that it The story changed constantly and I thought it was really really fascinating that and I I thought well, maybe you apply that to When you listen or read a book as well, like what mindset you are?
[00:38:23] Stephen Jay Schwartz: I think, uh, you know, when I read a book and then I read the same book two or three years later, and then I read that same book two or three years after that, um, I'm almost like reading a different book each time, and it's because of where I, the book hasn't changed. Mm-Hmm
mm-Hmm. .
[00:38:38] Marco Ciappelli: But
[00:38:38] Stephen Jay Schwartz: my, I've changed and I get something completely different out of the book.
It happens all the time. It kind of scares me.
[00:38:46] Marco Ciappelli: I know, but that's, uh, you know, that's, that's life. So, well, we could go talk about that as well. Listen, I, as I know, I, you know, we're getting to 40 minutes and I have a gazillion more questions and I love to do this thing. So I hope you're going to come back even after we've done this conversation and you know that, uh, you, you, hopefully you enjoyed it.
Um, and it's funny cause I, we were talking and I'm picturing myself. Uh, you know, outside of the coffee shop, we used to chat for a little bit when you were there with your kids and, uh, and, uh, and your wife. And, uh, and, uh, yeah, good memories. Good memories. Yeah. Good. And I feel like despite the, the 12 years that, or, or more, I feel like we just picked up where we left it, so.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I love that. I love that. And I hope that the, the audience got that as well. Uh, you know, this, this connection that we already had and, and enjoyed. The many different aspects of writing that we touched on and, uh, and I would say stay tuned and come back because I think we should, uh, and we will address some of the things we talked about today in a more detailed manner.
Deep dive. So, um, I really enjoyed it. I did too. I love it. And for everybody listening, uh, Stephen will share with me and I will put it on the notes all the way you can connect the website to the the link to the books and, uh, whatever other things is done and mentioned here. So, uh, If you can get in touch with him and stay tuned.
Subscribe to Aino podcast where we talk about stories, storytellers, and storytelling. So cool. Catch you next time.
[00:40:33] Stephen Jay Schwartz: Thanks, Marco.
[00:40:34] Marco Ciappelli: Thank you.
[00:40:35] Stephen Jay Schwartz: You bet.