Today's conversation is bound to be a global one, touching on culture, technology, and everyday human life. We'll delve into the journey Emmanuel undertook in crafting this book, the role of financial institutions in this imminent era, and the progressive shift from platform era to an age of personalization in finance.
Guest: Emmanuel Daniel, Global thought leader in the future of finance
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmanuel-daniel-5764482/
On Twitter | http://twitter.com/#!/EmmanuelDaniel
On Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/emmanueldanielauthor
On Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/edanielmoments/
On YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAVolSuHiFGFnEbnLpuS5kg?sub_confirmation=1
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Welcome, listeners, to yet another thought-provoking episode of the "Redefining Society" podcast. I am your host, Marco Ciappelli, and today's conversation is certain to ignite new perspectives on how society and technology are converging at a historic crossroads.
Our guest, Emmanuel Daniel, has recently authored an intriguing new book titled "The Great Transition: The Personalization of Finance is Here". With a sweeping view of global economic dynamics, he outlines the profound transformations set to occur in the finance industry. The book provides rich insights into how our economies will evolve under the influence of digitization, offering key insights for founders, disruptors, and policy-makers in finance.
What sets Emmanuel's work apart is his use of fascinating analogies, like the story of the ice trade, to illustrate the level of personalization we're poised to experience, the likes of which we've never seen before. He introduces the concept of the "financialization of everything," proposing that the pervasive impact of digitization will boost receptivity towards emerging trends such as cryptocurrencies, blockchain, and gaming, thereby transforming economies and reshaping societal norms.
Today's conversation is bound to be a global one, touching on culture, technology, and everyday human life. We'll delve into the journey Emmanuel undertook in crafting this book, the role of financial institutions in this imminent era, and the progressive shift from platform era to an age of personalization in finance.
Moreover, we'll explore how technology is enabling this great transition and the implications it will have on users across different generations. The conversation will provide insights into how society, as we know it, has evolved from the communal to the individualistic and how this trajectory is being accelerated by technological advancements.
Lastly, we'll touch on Emmanuel's concept of the "financialization of everything," a paradigm that views finance as the thread binding together our increasingly individualized lives and experiences.
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Redefining Society. We hope you will enjoy our exploration of social dynamics, emerging technologies, and the intricacies of our rapidly evolving world. We believe these conversations are crucial to understanding and navigating the terrain of the 21st century.
If you found value in today's episode, please share it with friends, family, colleagues, or anyone you believe could benefit from these discussions. Your shares really do make a difference and help to spread these important conversations far and wide.
And, of course, if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to the Redefining Society podcast. By doing so, you'll receive a notification each time a new episode goes live. This way, you'll never miss an opportunity to deepen your understanding of society and technology.
Furthermore, we also have a fantastic newsletter called Musing On Society & Technology. It dives deeper into many of the subjects we cover here, with thought-provoking articles and insights delivered straight to your inbox. If you're not already on the list, we strongly encourage you to subscribe.
Thank you once again for being part of this transformative conversation. We can't wait to share more with you in the future. Until then, keep redefining.
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Resources
https://www.emmanueldaniel.com/the-great-transition/
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To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
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Welcome to the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society. Welcome to ITSPmagazine. Let's face it, the future is now we're living in a connected cyber society, and we need to stop ignoring it or pretending that it's not affecting us. Join us as we explore how humanity arrived at this current state of digital reality, and what it means to live amongst so much technology and data. Knowledge is power. Now, more than ever.
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Marco Ciappelli01:51
All righty, here we go. This is redefining society podcast, once again with me Marco Ciappelli. And today, I have a really, really fantastic guest that we had the chance to chat a little bit before hitting the record button. And he's he's like, I wanna, I want to say he comes from different culture has a vision of the world that already fascinated me on top of being originally from one of my favorite country in the world where a lot of culture actually come together, which is Singapore. But like I said, he's been traveling, he's well known for what he does, and he's gonna tell us what he does. So his name is Emmanuel, Daniel, and we're going to talk about his book called The Great Transition, the personalization of finance is here. So I think it's gonna be a very global conversation, touching on culture, touching on technology, and of course, on our everyday life as human. So let's start with with the human in the conversation. Emmanuel, welcome to the show.
Emmanuel Daniel02:59
Marco, thank you for having me on. I'm a fan of the conversations you've had with other people. Yeah,
Marco Ciappelli03:06
I'm very honored to hear that.
Emmanuel Daniel03:09
Yeah. Well, Emmanuel, Daniel is the founder of something called the Asian banker. I started in Singapore 2829 years ago now. 1996. So counting, and in that, in that time, in that time, 2028 29 years, we've ceased to be Asian and refused to be banker. So you know, like, today, I'm talking to you from Dubai, where we have an office from where we reach out to Africa, for example. And I spent some time in Nigeria, in South Africa, South Africa, in Uganda and so on. And we become more global because, you know, the transformation is taking place in the banking and finance industry is global. And despite being called the Asian banker, in fact, you'll notice on my book, the two people who wrote the foreword, I'm happy to say, one of them is Barney Frank, the co author, the former congressman, was the co author of the Dodd Frank Act, which, in which regulates pretty much all of the US banking industry. And he's a personal friend of mine, you know, and a very dear personal friend of mine. And, and he wrote a very cantankerous forward, because you're always arguing about, you know, cryptocurrencies and decentralized finance. He belongs to the old school and all that, but I still wanted him to be the one to write the foreword, because I wanted to capture a little bit of the sense of the industry. And the reason he's my friend is because, like him and you know, several of the incredible personalities in the US banking system, I get to know them because when they visit Asia, I have them all to myself. That's how, that's how the friendships start. Okay, so And recall the Asian banker and you're no longer banker either, because so much is happening in the decentralized finance world. And so, maybe, well, 15 years ago, I first started, you know, honing in on the notion that I must write a book. But I didn't want it to make it a book that was substantive. And it was, you know, useful to the industry. So it took me it was writing the book in itself was a journey, in trying to make sense of what innovation in finances, and how to wrap our minds around the new things that are happening in finance. And so the final product was, it's very much a book about how to think about where finance is taking us. And so the final conclusion that I have in my book is that the personalization of finance is here. And what that means is, we are fast coming to the day, when technically, we do not need intermediaries in our financial interactions, that Marco and I can, you know, give money to each other, lend to each other, invest in each other without an intermediary without a financial institution. And then for that, we have to ask what do financial institutions really do? You know, so the cover of my book has a picture of a cube of ice. And what I'm trying to say is, there was a time when ice used to be in ozone, or the lakes of Michigan, and so on, and put on post drawn carriages and taken to the city. You know, that's roughly what happens to your money in your wallet per day, if it's sold around the world twice, it's subject to inflation, exchange rates, you know, bank charges, security, a whole range of things. So we are really not in control of money. Like we like to think we are, and we are quickly coming to, to a point where in payments in wealth management, we are increasingly in control of how we handle our money. Now, a lot has to happen between now and the day when when finally, when personalization finally arrives. But just by putting in place several principles, I'm trying to help the general reader actually, but also the banking, I'm trying to help the general reader, but I'm also challenging the banking industry that in how they need to think about, you know, disruptive changes and where and what they need to do. You know, so for the general reader, you find that there are some important, you know, parts that God has to take. And one of it is, I'm saying that, that the platform era is fraying at its ages. It's coming to an end. And we entering in technology terms, okay, not in financial industry terms, we are now entering a phase where there's greater personalization in technology. You know, so everything that we know about what's being discussed in web three, and web 3.0, which are really two different things. The battle to take transactions off, you know, the HTTP that as we know it to be, and put it on to, you know, blockchains or crypto or tokens, and then to enable people to transact value with each other, and also exist in multiple realities. Now that that face is underway at the moment, last year was the first year that Facebook said that it started to see a decline in the number of total users. Now, some of the decline is being captured by say Tik Tok. But as Facebook had 10, you know, about 15 years of a run, tick tock, we'll have a shorter run, because Facebook actually started in the desktop era. And it almost didn't make the transition into mobile. In fact, the Chinese players were quicker and mobile than then than the original desktop players, okay, Facebook and all the others. Even Amazon, right, it had to create new interfaces, when he moved into mobile and also the whole relationship changes. And now we are entering a yet another phase which is Internet of Things where not all transactions need to be centered on the mobile device, they will increasingly be be distributed and the distributed data points are all going to collect so much data that's going to become valuable to the financial services industry. So you see how I'm constructing the whole story of the future of finance. And from there, we can, we then can start seeing yet another point that I'm making in the book, which is the financialization of everything.
Marco Ciappelli10:12
And I'm gonna stop you for a second here, because you've already through so many different aspect that is going to affect our life. It's already affecting our life. And I keep asking myself, when you start it, that you said, you know, I've been brewing this idea of this book for many, many years. And I'm thinking like, if you wrote this book, let's say 10 years ago, or even 20 years ago, you couldn't not write this book, probably the way that you're writing it. And now, because technology has been going so fast, and even the concept of you know, web 3.0, and blockchain and all of that, it's it's very still hard to comprehend for the, for the normal user, probably thinking like, what does it mean? You know, if you want to use the metaphor, the ice now I'm making the ice in my own house versus not relying on on big news, right? And, and if I think about the banks birth, during the Renaissance, with a marriage and family and how they conceived, the idea of, well, the money doesn't really need to be in the bank, it could be a ledger between two banks. So take all of this and take it now into AI, mobile. I mean, how do you see? And then we go back into the technology that you see allowing all of these but how do you see the users adapting to this? Because I feel like there is an entire generations shift here from analog to digital natives, and now blockchain natives, while maybe in the know, the older generation, is not really ready for this. So I don't know, what do you see to be the, the the adaption of all of this by everyone,
Emmanuel Daniel12:14
you know, this first book was actually my second book I had in my head, but I needed to get it out, because I was in the banking industry. And I really need to have, you know, have a kind of a cathartic cathartic experience of just getting it out. Now, the so I've got the book out, right. And now I'm writing my first book as the second book, right, which is the, the, you know, the the, the wheeling civilization, which is how society itself is evolving. That's the original idea I had, which is that society as a whole, with or without technology was increasingly becoming individualistic. Central, you know, the me factor was becoming huge. In fact, by the way, there is already a book in the market. It's called the sovereign individual, if I'm not mistaken, someone pointed it out to me. And I looked at it as Oh, my goodness, they've thought about the same, I mean, other people thinking about the same idea as I am, except that when I wrote my book, I had completed my book when I came across that book, and they said nothing about finance. And so and the idea that, you know, two different groups of people could be thinking about the same thing, but from different angles, was very good. You know, but in terms of civilization itself, the short story is this, civilization, as it was in the Bronze Age, in the Mediterranean basin, we were highly communal, you know, and then or not, we, I wasn't there or not, from that part of the world, but but society, civilization was, you know, very communal, the, you know, the Greeks, the Romans, and so, the more North it went, it became increasingly individualistic and partially because of the geography, the population started to decrease, it gets colder, you know, greater reliance on yourself. And then, you know, by time it goes to Germany and, and, you know, the Calvinists and, and Martin Luther putting up the 99 thesis in the wall saying that religion is a personal relationship between God and men no longer you know, something that the church is an intermediary of, was a was a revolutionary idea. That started the protest movement. And then, you know, it went up even more even more north to the Scandinavian countries and then west to Netherlands and the UK, which then export it. Now, what the US is, is the, the logical conclusion of a civilization that had become Increasingly individualistic. And so the Calvinist, to them individualism means accountability and a relationship with God, by the time it reaches the US, you know, 200 years ago, and then today, it's self gratification and consumption, you know, so this this march towards individualism is continuing and technology is just, you know, a beating it, you know, so, so the thing is that the society needs to start thinking, how to deal with how to govern, and create accountability in, in a world that is definitely becoming highly individualistic. And today, we have the technology that is, you know, you know, baking it right now,
Marco Ciappelli15:52
I love how you explain this with there's no going really back back in time and really telling, you know, this is just as being human, right. So as you're explaining all of this, in my head, I'm thinking about one point that you make in the book, which is the funnel, financialization of everything. Because even when we were talking about individuality, I'm thinking like, what is that allow us to be individual is the fact that we have a way to make transaction that are not a give you a sheep, and you give me grain, right? It's, I give you money. So the finance in a way, the money, it's kind of like keep things together, even when they're separate. And so I'm thinking like, can you explain this concept of your word finance, do not make any claim? Yeah, the finalization,
Emmanuel Daniel16:46
you will use, you will already started hearing analyst in the US talking about this from a very different angle. But it's the same thing, which is that the US GDP used to be hard industries, manufacturing, services, and so on. Increasingly, finance is becoming an increasingly important part, the number is between 8% and 21% of the GDP. Right. Now, the thing is that, and in the last, you know, in the year 2013, the BA the Bureau of Economic Analysis, started tweaking the definition of what GDP constitutes. And that includes digital assets, that includes, you know, production of entertainment, movies, stuff like that, right. So we are becoming increasingly ephemeral. Now, what is happening in the markets is that the markets are increasingly looking for new data to trade on to create more markets, okay? And where is this data going to come from, it's going to come from all kinds of data capturing devices around the world. In fact, it was, you know, far back in 2014, that Jeff Mo, G, he said, In the future, GE is not going to be a manufacturing company, we our most important asset is going to be the data that's generated from all the manufacturing activities that we have. And then today, you see the Tesla car, that's a data machine, you know, that, that consumes and creates and uses tons of data. And a lot of that data can be put on on markets, that is tradable for by people who need to, you know, either trade in them or buy and sell them and use them for other purposes. You know, so, so anything, okay, what I say in my book is anything that can be digitized can be made into data. And anything that can be made into data can be financialized. So anything that can be digitized can be financialized. Okay. And and some of the analysts, I think, Cathy wood, for example, out in California, where you live, she says that she and a couple of people say say that it is not inconceivable that the US GDP, which is now what $21 trillion, can become fully 5 trillion in the next 10 to 15 years, just on the proliferation of a financialized economy. You know, and you take take all that is traded in the digital world in the metaverse, all of that is going to be started to be considered as economic activity. And then you start seeing a very different picture of what the economy is really all about. You know, so so that's what I mean by the financialization of everything. Now, not everything will be successfully financialized. But the world will go through a process of trying to financialized as much as possible. So the the, the allegory that I gave in the book was, I think, was Jared Diamond who said it in his book that, you know, man tried to tame all the animals possible in the world, but only about 17 of the large animals above 100 kilograms were capable, because of different reasons, you know, the zebra wasn't sustainable because it's a nervous creature, the lion wasn't tamed, because it was, it consumes too much, you know, the output, the input is too much, you know, not relative, not consumer, not, you know, not equal to the output, stuff like that. So, so we will go through a process of trying to financialized many things, and then come to a kind of a plateau where we start to understand what can be financialized? But can't. And that's what I mean by the financialization of everything.
Marco Ciappelli20:50
Wow. Yes, that's a good metaphor right there. And most of the thinking, what's the role of the big institutionally you talk about the big animal, right, the elephants, and so forth? You know, and, of course, I think about, you know, the big bank in the big organization, are they the one that are actually pushing towards this transformation? Have they been resisting this transformation? Because it takes things away from them? Or who's driving what and how is this banking traditional banking institution? Because when you read the news many times like, the regulation wants to get on the blockchain. I mean, I'm not on blockchain, but on the cryptocurrency, many time Kryptos. The the pact as risky investment as black market used for nefarious activity? It's not really in a really good light, but, but they know that the future is there, you know that the future is there. So what what is the what is the dynamic there between resisting change and pushing change?
Emmanuel Daniel21:57
You know, MIT? No, if you look at any photograph, you can Google right now to look at it. Any photograph of New York City in 1901, you will see that there were lots of horse drawn carriages. And then one little motor vehicle, okay, one little car, one little car, motor vehicle cannot even car you can't even call. Yeah, because they made it they tried to make it look like a hostile character. You know, and just one, okay, and then everything else. And he was a nuisance, because he stood in the way it was he, it was noisy. It was not necessarily comfortable. It was slow. You know, and then you take you then Google and say, New York, you know, 1920, you know, and it's just not liking 10. Okay, not not even 1920 it was just the opposite, that everybody else had a car and, and the horse drawn carriage was like maybe one, you know, in a way and you find some old timers or leave any old like to have him have one. In fact, today, you'll still find horse drawn carriages in New York, except that it's for the tourists. Novelty. You know, so that the transition that the banking industry goes through is like this. You know, you and I like to travel macro. And you said this to me, you know that you've been to Singapore and all that. And every time we go to new city, we find that, you know, there will always be this historical building that used to be the tallest building in town. Maybe it's a Church Cathedral, you know, and then now they've got, you know, 100 storey buildings, right, right next to that, and it shrinks everything down. The banking industry is exactly that. The largest bank in the world today is $5 trillion in total assets, the the asset management companies, okay, Blackrock is $11 trillion. You know, so the industry has changed dramatically. And sure, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies about $2 trillion right now. But they're growing, right. So the more chic we are more contemporary, and they occupy a different part of town, and, you know, with all the promise of being able to grow further, so. So focus is that, oh, you know, what's going to happen to the banking industry, it's already started happening. In all the corporate lending market, the commercial paper market is bigger than bank lending to corporations, you know, anywhere in the US and definitely in many other countries as well. The stock market has has started to, you know, taper off in that, since I think about 9095. You know, it hasn't grown very much. The number of companies that take the public route to raising capital have sort of tapered off. So, so things are already changing on the balance sheet front, on the business model front and the proliferation of new players. Then the question is, which which field you want to play it and generate your wealth and create your own Your own portfolio, you know, so, if you if you still think that the banking industry is what serves your needs, even that is changing, you know, so I have my own because of the way I think I could see something like Silicon Valley Bank coming to happening. In fact, I say in my book, when I, when I was in 2017, I gave a speech and I said, you know, the Kodak industry, Kodak as a company, practically invented the the digital film in 1997, and is a guy who actually make make the camera, and it was the size of a toaster that time, right, but, but it was the one company that couldn't figure out, could you know how to transition out of the product it loved the most, which was the 35 Mm, film, but you know, and then what happened was 2000 2000, Sony came up with a with a cyber shot 2007, the iPhone perfected the you no camera on the phone, and 2010 Kodak went into bankruptcy. So then I asked myself, what would be a similar product that is beloved by the bank, or the banking industry that you wouldn't imagine will turn in on them. And I said in my book, which was published last year in October, September, that, that it would be the deposit industry. And that's exactly what happened to Silicon Valley Bank, which is the deposit base, there's such a thing as excess deposits. And there's such a thing as a mix, mismatch of funds. And there is such a thing that if you don't know how to get out of the deposit business, it is got the ability to kill you as a bank. So the industry has changed on itself, the very core of the products that define industry are today fully capable of destroying the industry because they're digital, and they serve a different purpose.
Marco Ciappelli27:17
What What a great way to think about progress, and inventing the same thing that's going to ruin your company, because you can't figure out what to do with it. It's crazy starting to think about that. I find this whole conversation fascinating. And I know we're just touching on a small elements, but you're doing a fantastic job in giving the big picture. And I'm scrolling through all the chapter and the paragraph you have in the book and everything could be a question, but we don't have three, four hours. So I would like to take this last few minutes that we have, maybe with the chapter number eight, the one that you call reimagining the product, because it gives me a way to ask my favorite question, which is about the future. So how do you see transforming the future? Especially if you can make some example of how you see people changing their own daily way to do transaction? I mean, we already know we're not really going to the bank. I don't even remember the last time I went to the bank, physically to the bank, right? I mean, I know is there. But what other big changes? You've seen this transition into personalization, personal financing, and digitalization, I mean, what's what's the world is going to look like? on an everyday basis. We're gonna do everything on your phone. Give us a futuristic look on what society will be in.
Emmanuel Daniel28:50
So, you know, it depends on who I'm speaking to it. I'm speaking to the people in the industry, especially the FinTech people, right? The people in financial technology, who thought 10 years ago that they were going to disrupt the industry that banks will be dinosaurs, and it will be over. But that's not going to happen today. Just about every FinTech company, wants to become a bank. And then you ask yourself, Hey, what happened, you know, you were supposed to this thing was supposed to get. And what happened was that the FinTech industry was defining the products in the same language as the bankers. So So like in peer to peer, for example, in peer to peer, they call it lending. And once you call it lending, and you call it a mortgage, you fall into the same trap and the same regulatory requirements that a bank does. So it is not surprising that the peer to peer play players ended up becoming like a bank, but in the future with a lot of data being transmitted between users directly and also between institutions. We are going to get a very nuanced view of each other. And with a nuanced view, what we consider to be assets are going to change. Okay, so So what I'm saying is that and this is for your wealth management, you know, viewers and and listeners, what is going to change is that the idea of assets are going to change assets are number one going to be ephemeral. In other words, they're not going to be backed by any underlying, you know, real assets, like, like a house, for example. So, you know, and especially with the new generations, call them Gen Z, whatever, they are willing to own assets for shorter periods of time, they're willing to share assets, you know, and, and trade assets regularly, it becomes a fashion statement, rather than a lifelong commitment of sorts. You know, so as we move into that realm, the way in which we think of wealth has to change as well.
Marco Ciappelli31:03
Wow. That's, that's, that's a big third right there. The changing what used to be valuable, and you were working for the house, that was forever, right? Or the asset, there was forever and you realize that change is the only constant really, and you, you just move it around the entire idea of owning things, I think it's change, like, you know, we don't own the car anymore. We leased the car, which is user when we need it. You said sharing it. I mean, you go back a few years, and you bring up this concept to I don't know, an older generation, they'll be like, are you crazy? Absolutely not. But now we are sharing rights. We are sharing, you know, Airbnb, we're sharing homes early. So that's
Emmanuel Daniel31:51
the more data you have, the more is easier it is to swap in and out of assets. So it's the same data that's created chat GPT, for example, we try to wrap our minds around it and say, Oh, my goodness, is so much data, what do we do with it, is because there's so much data, you can walk in and out of it, you know, you you can define your relationships, more nuanced. You know, like, like, if you wanted a 30 year mortgage, you can now break it down to 10 different portions, with, you know, with different types of lenders, and so on, and live your life, you know, and, and have something that is no longer called a mortgage, you know,
Marco Ciappelli32:38
so, so much to think about. Emmanuelle, I really appreciate you coming here. And again, you just accomplish what I want to accomplish for me on the show, which is making people think, right, I want people to think more and ask more question. Now, if they stick with listening to what we talked about, then when they started this conversation, because there's a lot of question, a lot of understanding and knowledge to acquire. So I would suggest, of course, people to read the book, the great transition, the personalization on finances here. And of course, there will be links to your website, to your social media to the book itself. I am the notes for this show. And I just invite people to get in touch with you. And please, when you have that next book. I really want to talk about that too. Because that's sounds really, really fascinating to me. So Manuel, thank you so much.
Emmanuel Daniel33:36
Thank you. Thank you for this conversation.
Marco Ciappelli33:38
I appreciate it. Thanks, everybody. Stay tuned, subscribe, and share this conversation. If you find it interesting. Stay tuned for the next one. So yep.
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Devo unlocks the full value of machine data for the world's most instrumented enterprises. The Devo data analytics platform addresses the explosion in volume of machine data and the crushing demands of algorithms and automation. Learn more@devo.com big crowds award winning platform combines actionable contextual intelligence with the skill and experience of the world's most elite hackers to help leading organizations identify and fix vulnerabilities, protect customers and make the digitally connected world a safer place. Learn more@bugcrowd.com Black Cloak provides concierge cybersecurity protection to corporate executives and high net worth individuals to protect against hacking, reputational loss, financial loss, and the impact of a corporate data breach. Learn more at Black cloak.io
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