In this new age where technology seamlessly integrates with our daily lives, it's more important than ever to understand how it shapes us and, conversely, how we shape it.
Interconnected Realities: How the Metaverse Will Transform Our Relationship with Technology Forever (Book): https://amzn.to/4egYeVm
Virtual Natives: How a New Generation is Revolutionizing the Future of Work, Play, and Culture (Book): https://amzn.to/4eh4NqL
Guest: Leslie Shannon, Head of Trend and Innovation Scouting, Nokia [@nokia]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/leslie-shannon-75856718/
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Welcome to another thought-provoking discussion on the Redefining Society and Technology Podcast. I'm Marco Ciappelli, your host, and today we delve into the blurred boundaries of our hybrid analog-digital world. It's time to stop ignoring the profound impact of technology on our society because the future is now.
The Blurring Line: Physical vs. Virtual
Imagine a world where the line between the physical and virtual realms no longer exists—a figment of our imagination. We live in such a world today. In a conversation with Leslie Shannon, we explore her insightful books, Virtual Natives and Interconnected Realities, which delve into the dynamics of emerging technology and its impact on society.
Leslie, Head of Trend and Innovation Scouting at Nokia, elaborates on the concept of integrating digital tools into our physical environments. Whether through augmented reality or AI-infused devices, technology is increasingly woven into the fabric of our daily lives.
Technology Adoption: More Than Meets the Eye
Leslie's exploration into mixed reality, AR, VR, and the metaverse opens up new avenues for understanding how technology is adopted—not just how it’s designed. Her insights highlight the intrinsic need for technology to solve real, tangible problems for users, emphasizing convenience and utility over novelty.
Although immersive digital worlds offer fascinating experiences, they must provide genuine solutions to gain widespread acceptance. This is the metaverse’s core challenge—bridging the digital with physical in a fulfilling way.
Virtual Natives: A New Generation with Old Wisdom
Leslie's book, Virtual Natives, describes a generation that grew up in a truly digital world unencumbered by remnants of analog processes. This new breed, adept at digital multitasking and unburdened by past paradigms, promises to be a potent force for innovation and disruption.
Yet, despite concerns about social skills and real-world interactions, Leslie and I discuss the resiliency and empowerment of these digital descendants. They are not bound by traditional workplace expectations, questioning norms with an arsenal of digital alternatives at their disposal.
Redefining Society, Redefining Ourselves
Our society is being redefined by dynamic interactions with technology. From embracing tools like CHAT GPT in daily life to questioning long-held norms in education and workplace practices, our relationship with technology is continuously evolving.
In conclusion, the next steps in societal evolution depend on how we integrate these digital realities into our everyday lives. As Leslie suggests, the spatial internet and technological advancements offer opportunities we haven’t fully realized yet but promise significant societal shifts.
Let’s embrace the change, question the status quo, and redefine what it means to be a part of this connected and innovative society. The future is not somewhere you go; it’s something you create.
I invite you to stay tuned as we continue to explore these fascinating intersections between technology and society on the Redefining Society and Technology Podcast. Stay curious, stay questioning.
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Resources
Interconnected Realities: How the Metaverse Will Transform Our Relationship with Technology Forever (Book): https://amzn.to/4egYeVm
Virtual Natives: How a New Generation is Revolutionizing the Future of Work, Play, and Culture (Book): https://amzn.to/4eh4NqL
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To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcast
Watch the webcast version on-demand on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllTUoWMGGQHlGVZA575VtGr9
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Books | Redefining Society and Technology in the Age of “Virtual Natives” and “Interconnected Realities” | A conversation with Author Leslie Shannon | Redefining Society Podcast With Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Redefining Society with me, Marco Ciapelli. And I have to say that I'm actually changing the title of the podcast because we always talk about society and technology, but I figure I might as well just put it in the title. So, Redefining Society and Technology is going to be the title The new title is going to be updated next time.
Uh, but, uh, yeah, that's always been the core of the conversation that I, that I like to have my interest in technology and my background in sociology, and it all come together when I founded ITSP magazine, where we talk about cybersecurity, technology and society, which is pretty much everything at this point.
Um, I have back today, Leslie Shannon. And, uh, we had a Fun conversation. I think it was in December last year because it was before CES, where I know you were on a panel. That was last year. I already know we're gonna go at this CES. I don't know if you're going back or not, but Oh, 100%.
[00:01:03] Leslie Shannon: 100%. Oh, there you go.
Then maybe we get Yeah, some of the best new stuff is at CES.
[00:01:08] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, I'm sure that one year in CES and technology time is You know, 100 years of what it used to be. So at this point, the fast speed of change, it's, it's definitely becoming the norm. And that's what we're going to talk about today, because you wrote two books, and, and I think they are connected one with another.
So I'm going to give you the word, you're going to introduce yourself, if you don't mind, and then I will go with my first question.
[00:01:38] Leslie Shannon: Okay, great. Well, Marco, thank you so much for having me back. I really, I really enjoyed our conversation last time too. So I'm Leslie Shannon.
I am Nokia's head of trend and innovation scouting um, at Nokia. Quick note, we don't make phones anymore. We, um, are the business to business supplier of telecommunication, telecommunications equipment to the phone companies and large enterprises of the world that have their own networks. So, you know, base stations, fiber optic cable, routing equipment, all that kind of stuff.
That's what we do. And, and we've always done it. It's just the phone guys got a lot more attention. The network side of the house, but I've been on the network side always. So, um, so, so my role is specifically to look for Innovations that are happening in other industries that are the, that we need to make sure that the telecommunications network, um, adapts to be able to support.
And so that means that I'm always looking at a lot of like super cool new stuff, particularly right now. Um, uh, still mixed reality, um, AR and VR and their implications for, you know, social use and, and, and. The network. I won't talk too much about the network today, but that's, that's really my driving, my driving interest.
Um, and then, um, uh, uh, and, and generative AI. So I'm looking a lot at that right now too. And, um, but the social aspect, you mentioned that I have two books. One of them is about the technology and the other one is about, Kind of how people actually use it because again, you know, coming from the network point of view, we can build the network however we like, but the way that people use it, that actually quite often determines where we need to build it in the future.
So it's not just looking at the technology, but understanding how it's going to be used is a big part of what I do.
[00:03:24] Marco Ciappelli: And that's the big bet, because you, you can, you can design technology, but you can't be sure that people are going to use it exactly the way that you expect them to use it. And I think there's been cases
[00:03:37] Leslie Shannon: Usually they don't, right?
[00:03:39] Marco Ciappelli: There's been cases, definitely, that, that it's like, oh, wait a minute, that's not what I intended. But, uh But that's that's that's why we're doing what we do here. You know, it's kind of like it human science uh, it's not uh It's not a Certain science. It's not mathematics that we change there is many factor that comes into play when we talk about the way we think the way we act the way we react and so um, I I want to actually talk about something that That we did mention, uh, many times in the past few years, which is the metaverse.
And all of a sudden, I don't know about you, but I'm not hearing much about it. Uh, and one of your book was actually, you know, interconnected, interconnected realities, which is, uh.
[00:04:28] Leslie Shannon: Got it right here. Yeah. Interconnected realities.
[00:04:30] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And then you have the other one that we're going to get to. So, because again.
It's interconnected. All of that. I think even those two books. So tell me, it's still a thing. The metaverse. What's going on with that one?
[00:04:43] Leslie Shannon: Yeah. Okay. Well, you know, getting back to the point that we were kind of touching on there, how technology quite often doesn't get picked up the way that we intended.
Um, one of the overriding principles that I keep seeing playing out again and again, as, as I've been doing this, this discussion. This trend watching, um, over the last decade is that there's all kinds of spectacular new technology that, um, is, is wonderful on paper, or it sounds like a great idea, but in practice, we humans don't use something unless it genuinely solves a problem for us at, um, and, and, and is convenient.
And, and so, and, and within convenience is the concept of cost as well. If it costs too much in terms of money or time, then, then, you know, That no, but it needs to be convenient. So, excuse me, if it's a pain in the neck, we're not going to, you know, even, even if it's superb technology, we're, we're just not going to use it.
And I think, um, uh, it's a first, first, actually, I should say straight up the metaverse is alive and well, but
[00:05:45] Marco Ciappelli: not
[00:05:46] Leslie Shannon: Well, it was driven out of the headlines by generative AI. So, so, but it's still there, particularly everybody working in, um, XR. So mixed reality, extended reality. There's more people than ever, more companies than ever, creating even bigger and better, more exciting things.
But, um, like actually in my book, Interconnected Realities, Um, I asked that question. I asked, you know, what, what is for all these different flavors of mixed reality that are out there from both, you know, AR and VR, both offline and real time for each of these different areas. What are the ones that are genuinely solving a problem?
And what are the ones that that that are convenient to use? And then what are the ones that don't really fall into that category? And, you know, and I, I'm pleased to say that, you know, just with this, uh, not. super sophisticated tool, I was able to say when I wrote the book, you know, the, okay, look, the really immersive platforms where you go in and we're all digital.
Uh, what, why, what, what purpose is that serving? And so, yes, there has been a dwindling of that. There are subcultures, um, uh, a lot of cosplay, a lot of gaming and stuff like that that are still thriving. Absolutely. But in terms of all of us going and living our lives online as digital things and, you know, never leaving the house and never getting any sunshine, that, that vision never made any sense to me at all.
But, um, another thing that's kind of shifted is the word metaverse has, that's kind of drift, dropped a little by the wayside. Because of the association with the company meta, that's been confusing. And so the industry has kind of as a whole shifted to talking about more the spatial internet. And so the idea of having the kinds of information that you can get from the internet information and entertainment, and then having that integrated into your physical space in some way, whether through um, a VR kind of headset, like the Quest 3.
That the Quest 3 is such a good headset. Everybody goes on, uh, you know, and rightly so about Apple's Vision Pro, but the Quest 3 is so wonderful and it has pass through video and there's increasing numbers of really spectacular experiences you can have where digital, um, things merge with and mix with your physical environment as seen through the headset.
And that's, that's great. But I think even more powerfully is, um, the idea of augmented reality in, um, headsets. And this is actually very much what Interconnected Realities is about. Kind of, you know, not to be too much of a spoiler here, but I conclude that this is actually the future. And, now what I didn't foresee is the rise of augmented reality.
audio connection to generative AI engines through AR kinds of glasses. And so because the idea of augmenting your reality It is just as valid to augment it with audio input as with visual input. And so the paradigm we all had in mind was that you would have, you know, visual things coming to you with these glasses giving you information about your three dimensional world as you move through it.
But for example, like the, uh, the Meta Ray Ban glasses that started off with just a forward facing camera, but now they've added voice, um, ability to interact with Meta's large language model, Lama, and, and the ability to take the pictures that are coming from the forward facing cameras and feed those into Lama as well.
So to be able to then have the glasses understand the context in which you are and what you're asking the question, and then to be able to, you know, to answer, um, using only spoken audio as opposed to something visual. And if you haven't experienced it, it is so good. It is so good. And it doesn't sound like much, right?
But the ability to have Always available. Hands free, right? So you've got, you don't have to be like staring at a screen and where you're holding something in your hand. So you've lost both your eyes and your hand where you could be looking at the world and have both of your hands available to you and ask questions about, Oh, what is that?
How can I, what do I do about that? Tell me more about that. This is now, you know, that may not be what people have had in mind at the beginning when they were saying the word metaverse. But for me, this is actually where we get to. We're starting to get to the digital physical fusion that is at the heart of the metaverse concept.
[00:10:25] Marco Ciappelli: Now, it seems to me and correct me because I think it's a matter of definition, right? I mean, even, even years ago, I was reading, articles where some people were like, you know, augmented reality is already metaverse. It doesn't need to be virtual reality, right? Yes. Other people were even getting to the point where it could be just you on your computer playing a video games or immersing yourself in it in a 2d without even being virtual or 3d or augmented and still be immersed in that Metaverse and still count as metaverse.
I guess we need to agree like what what is The definition of metaverse because you you were talking about more what I thought it was Augmented reality because I mean, I mean the real world You're interacting with an AI, which I love. I talk with CHAT GPT all the time. I have argument with it. But I don't think about that as the metaverse because I'm, I'm still in my own reality.
So
[00:11:30] Leslie Shannon: well, let me, let me read my definition. Um, yes. And so, so, and this is a little wordy, sorry. Cause there were a lot of concepts to pack in here, but, um, okay. So the metaverse is a partly. Or fully digital experience that brings together people, places, and or information in real time that transcends what is possible in the physical world alone, in order to solve a problem.
So, in a way, you and me meeting in this, in this, video world, this could be construed as the metaverse. And, and so, and, you know, and I, I prefer to have a wider definition of it rather than a more narrow one, but it's, it's the idea of using digital means to transcend what is possible in the physical world fundamentally.
And we do so much of that already. We don't even really think about it, but the, the, the narrow, narrow, narrow, uh, term metaverse, um, Some people took to mean only the, it's you and me in digital format existing on some kind of digital platform. I think that's one part of the wide spectrum, but quite frankly, as I said before, I think that's one of the most useful, useless parts, and I will say useless.
Because I, I don't see that it solves a problem in ways that other ways do. This platform that you and I are on right now, this is actually solving the problem of the fact that you and I are at different ends of California. And we're able to talk to each other and see each other and see each other's environments as we're speaking.
And that gives us context for a deeper conversation than if we were purely having an audio call. Yes. And so, so, so, but you're right. It is, it is a concept. It is a matter of definition, but uh, uh, I want to be clear that that was my definition of the metaverse when I was still using the term metaverse and I haven't just squirreled away from it because it's But but uh, but yeah, it's the it's What can digital integration of information into our physical space as we move through the world, what can it do for us?
Because the fundamental problem that's being solved here, and again, it always has to come back to a problem being solved, otherwise there's no point. The problem that's being solved is that right now, 98 percent of the information that we get from a computer, we can only get it by looking at a screen.
You and I are looking at screens right now and yeah, we're seeing each other, but it's on a two dimensional screen. What I'm not seeing is I'm not seeing the rest of the, my environment around here. Cause I've got my eyes dead ended on a screen. If my son comes home from school, you know, he's going to be back over there.
And excuse me. And I will, you know, and I'll, I'll be like, You'll see me staring at a screen. Actually, this morning I was, I was doing, I had another Zoom meeting and my son left for school and I just heard the door slam. He didn't say anything. I totally missed him because I was staring at a screen. And that's the price that we're paying.
And we don't think about it too much in terms of laptops because, okay, you're at your desk and you're doing your work. But with smartphones, it's, and I know it's weird for somebody from Nokia to be saying this, with smartphones, it's a real problem. Because we're out in the world, and we're taking our gaze away from the places and the people that we are presently in, and we're just staring at this two dimensional screen, and we're completely absorbed by this, and we're missing out.
We're missing out on the beauty and the brilliance of the three dimensional experience that is life.
[00:15:04] Marco Ciappelli: You know, this is why I wanted you back. Because I remember we were having not only Nokia conversation that, you know, I grew up with the non smartphone and all of that, but the fact that you're saying something so the definition of.
My show is that, um, the, the claim, let's say that I do at the beginning, or if you read the, the introduction is that the, the, the line between real world and virtual world is blurry, doesn't exist anymore. We are living our life like this. We're living our life in the real world. But the fact that you're highlighting the fact that the metaverse is.
The concept of integrating the two worlds together, it really strike a note that has been going in my head. And then, and then you said that we stare at the phone and I, I've been wanting to write it, a newsletter. I have a newsletter that I write on technology and society, remembering all the time that I've been at a concert and I spent a lot of money to go to that concert, but then I spent half of the time at that concert filming.
Or taking picture. And instead of enjoying the fact that I am
watching live, I am filtering
[00:16:27] Marco Ciappelli: through the screen. Why am I even there? Why am I here watching YouTube? Watching
[00:16:32] Leslie Shannon: through a screen at home. Right, right, right, right. It's, it's, and the, the classic, you know, the whole thing. Family or a social group out to dinner at a restaurant and everybody's staring at the screen on their phone I mean, we're gonna be making fun of this particular chapter in human society In not very long from now because it's ridiculous.
It's absolutely ridiculous. And so we now The problem is that the information and the entertainment that's behind that piece of glass is really interesting to us and, and, and useful to us. It has utility, which is why we keep doing it. And so, so I'm not saying, you know, we shouldn't be carrying phones or whatever that that's, that's not right.
It's how do we get that same information and entertainment integrated into ourselves and our awareness while we are still It's still very present in the physical world. And I'm going to actually, you made the earlier distinction between the real world and the virtual world. No, because the things that happen to you, the things that you see that are digital, they're real.
I mean, they happen to, you know, it's real. If, if there's, if like you're in a space and you're an avatar and another avatar comes up and says something really rude to you, you, your emotions will be real. It doesn't matter that it was an avatar. So, So I make the distinction between the physical world and the virtual world.
And for me, the concept of the metaverse, the spatial internet is the combining of those two. And all of it is real. All of it is real. And, and so yes, blurring 100%. But how can we blur it better? How can we blur it in a way that it really does become convenient for us to have this, AI assistant, this ability to have, to be omniscient about the things about us or to, to be able to tap into, um, you know, the, the, the knowledge of the universe as we move through our spaces and particularly when we're moving into new spaces, that's actually the problem that the spatial internet can solve.
And I think AR has the ability. Because when you're out there with your smartphone, as I said before, you know, not only are your eyes dead ending on the screen, but you've lost a hand as well. So to move it, move this information to something that is always there in, you know, in kind of a glasses format, it may not be glasses, but some kind of format, probably on your head, because that's where your eyes and your ears are, um, and your mouth.
So, you know, it's where all the senses are. So the head makes sense. to let you have your hands free while you are then continuing to receive information. And, and because presenting the information visually is difficult, that's why, you know, uh, being able to visualize things as we initially thought augmented reality would take That's still coming, but it's, you know, probably not coming till the end of this decade in commercially available ways.
So the fact that audio has kind of slipped in there as, as a really good way station to, and it proves the utility. Once you start actually using the stuff, it's, it's like, wow, this is so exciting. I love having this tool.
[00:19:35] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and I, I, you break it an open door with me and audio because I, I live really on audible and podcast.
And if I can have it read, I can still do other things. I can walk my dog. I can make dinner. I have my hands free, so I can totally see that. And I still blow up my mind that, sorry for all the people watching this, but the people that love watching it, Podcast. For me, podcast is audio, but yeah, I mean, having the hands free and, you know, walking the dogs.
I had three dogs. I walked them and I tried to, to, I don't know, reply to a text message. I want to be able to just be it, doing it correctly just by inputting my, uh, Uh, my, my request without having to touch that thing. So I'd really love that now. So let's move to the other book because we are Virtual
Natives
[00:20:36] Marco Ciappelli: is the cover, which is a really cool cover, by the way, for people listening, um, maybe we can try to describe it to you, but it's, it's pretty cool.
But so there is the virtual natives, which I want to hear your definition, but I'm, I'm guessing people that are born with the internet or the smartphone and those generation. And then there is me, the older one that I grew up with analog, but then I, I jump on the bus. I didn't let the bus go away. I jump on the cell phone.
I jump on the internet. I jump on all this stuff, but it's still not natural. In a way from me, even if I do it so much, I talk about it all the time. I get the latest gadget when I can. Sometime I still find myself to be like, wait a minute, I should, I could have asked this to CHAT GPT, could have take that picture and say, what is this?
How do I fix this problem? And so I'm, I'm getting there, but sometimes I forget. Because I'm kind of used to the old school way of doing things. Let me go on Google. No, I should just ask each other
[00:21:49] Leslie Shannon: too. Right. We're actually hitting at what the definition of virtual native is. And actually, I want to take a moment to shout out, um, uh, so I wrote this with, um, Catherine Henry and all, you mentioned the cover, all the cover credit goes to her.
This was actually one of the first book covers. Um, out there. Uh, Catherine says it's the first. I'm not, I don't know if we can claim that, but, but it was very, very, uh, designed with AI. And so this was a generative AI, um, uh, book cover. So it's, and it's a bunch of, it's a bunch of teenagers looking, looking very futuristic.
Looking,
[00:22:21] Marco Ciappelli: uh, uh, very fabulous. Steampunk or modern. Yeah.
[00:22:25] Leslie Shannon: Yeah. And so, and the back of the book under the dust cover, the publisher really did a very nice job with, uh, with, with the book. Um, uh, so, um, yeah. Okay. So what is a virtual native? Well, okay. So 20, I think 25 years ago, I think it was in 2000, um, that, uh, there was an author who, coined the term digital natives, and this was an idea that was to define the kids who had grown up using the internet.
You know, the internet starts coming up at the beginning of the 90s, by 2000, you've got these children who are kind of, um, more familiar with a keyboard than with an index in a book. And, and so it's like, whoa, these digital natives, it's kind of wild, right? So, um, and okay, that's absolutely valid. That absolutely was a, um, uh, Uh, a big change, but time has moved on and things have changed even more.
And that's what Catherine and I wanted to talk about in our, in the book. And so, uh, virtual natives, these are largely, um, the people who have born since the year 2000. Um, however, it is a mindset. You can be older and still be a virtual native, just like, you know, shout out to you and your, uh, use of new technologies, but, but here's, here's the difference though, what you said about, you know, yeah, sometimes you Almost, okay, the computing that was available around, um, 2000, almost all of it was, um, it was a computer version of the original analog process that had preceded it.
It did not rethink that process. It only converted it into computer form. And a really good example of this is email. I mean, it uses the term mail. The icon is a little envelope. And it takes the same form. I write a note, I address it, and I send it to you, and only you get it, and I have no idea what you do with it.
I don't know if you read it, I don't know if you, like, file it, I don't know if you throw it away. After I've sent it to you, it's gone. It's history. And so email replicated that. And so digital natives were the ones that grew up in those systems that were based on analog systems. And the digital natives also grew up in households where the analog systems still existed.
So, you know, you were still seeing somebody putting a stamp on an envelope and putting that in the mail. Virtual natives have only grown up in the digital world and many of and most of the analog processes that those original computer situations were based on have gone. If I ask my children, I've got two teenage boys.
If I ask my children to send a letter, like write a thank you letter to your grandmother, like first of all, sheer panic. And there's multiple aspects of this that are really difficult for them. First of all, handwriting, because they don't do that. Handwriting, having to write something by hand and then having to.
Fold up the piece of paper, put it in an envelope, and then figure out how to address it. They don't know how to do this because they don't do it, and they don't see it done. And even like, what's a stamp? What's a stamp for? Where do I get a stamp? Um, you know, these are all things that are completely foreign to them.
And so what this does is that frees the virtual native generation from expectations. about, cause you and I have an unconscious expectation about how person to person communication should go. And unconsciously, subconsciously, it's based on the mail, which virtually just don't have that. And so they are much happier in something like discord or slack, where it makes much more sense.
I send a message, not to just you, I send a message to the project and it is something that everybody can see. And it is something that lives with the life of the project. And this is a much more efficient way to use communications. And why would anybody ever use email anyway? And so so so what happens is virtual natives not only grew up away from these things But they also grew up with digital tools.
These were the kids that were swiping Um before they talked before they had language They were using pictures and watching videos on ipads and the like and so so for them being In a digital space, seeing digital things is completely second nature and so they are so adept at digital tools that as they become adults, and this is actually a really key moment that's happening right now, because they're, the oldest ones are 25, you know, they're kind of starting to get out of college and get into the adult world and they're discovering things that the things that we've accepted in the world that are like really horrible and actually make no sense when you look at them, like Mortgages, like, you know, the banking system in general, uh, lots of insurance, you know, they're looking at this and they're going, what the heck?
Why? What, what is this? Why is this so difficult? And they have the digital tools to rethink and come up with new platforms and new solutions for these problems. And I think we're going to, this spearhead a massive wave of disruption. Not all of it is going to work. Um, because, you know, experimentation is experimentation, you know, poor Sam Bankman Freed is, you know, in jail for a million years because, uh, his, his attempt to overthrow the banking system didn't really work.
Didn't really think that went through. Um, but, uh, but we're going to, and we will see more of that kind of thing, but we will also see well thought out, well executed challenges to the status quo in almost Every single area of life in which what's what exists is something that we older people have just put up with.
[00:28:13] Marco Ciappelli: I've got a lot of gears. I know, I can see you thinking. It's literally, I'm saying analog gears. I could have said, you know, binary or quantum computing. You made a really, really excellent point about the fact that they have a completely different mindset because they, they are used to a technology that That for us is, is change and they leave it.
Not as a change, but as a natural thing. It's the base. It's the starting point. Therefore, everything they think, they think it that way. And I can see how you say this is a complete flip onto innovation, maybe better or worse, but it's definitely different. Right. Because it's not thought as the way we think it in our generation.
[00:29:04] Leslie Shannon: And another really key element with virtual natives is that, um, because of their existence on digital platforms from, in most cases, you know, preteen times, um, and there are many opportunities for them as children to earn money. Uh, my older son, he won thousands of dollars playing Fortnite and filed his first tax returns when he was 15.
Um, my younger son, like the big thing that we did the day that he turned 13 was register him on Twitch so he could become a Twitch streamer. And because you can legally be a Twitch streamer and start earning money, um at the age of 13. So 13th birthday, that was that was the big, you know moment. So and then because You These children can earn money from their own activities.
There's no parent mediating this. Um, so they can earn it through gaming. They can earn it through creating and selling digital goods. They can earn it through creating worlds and roadblocks. There's, you know, there's lots of opportunities. And most of the times it's not, it's not life changing money. Like most kids are not paying off their parents mortgages, right?
There's a few that are, but that's a vanishingly small percentage, but most of them are just earning a little bit of money. What that does also is it means that when they do actually become adults, And they get a job and like, what, what is this nine to five thing? Why do I need to be physically present here?
Why do I need, you know, I don't see the reason for this. I don't see the reason to waste my time in a commute. And I know that I have alternatives. I don't have to have this nine to five job. If you're not, if you the employer are not pleasing me, I've got alternatives. You've never dreamed of. I can go and do a travel blog for a while and I will be fine.
Thank you very much. And so they are coming in to the office, um, with a very different mindset and many workplaces are not ready for this at all. And so Catherine and I did not intend for Virtual Natives to be a book about the workplace, but the first half of the book is very much, you know, Hey, here's, here's what we find, um, you know, in terms of defining this generation and what they, you know, And then the second one ended up, again, not our intention, but we kept landing on workplace topics.
So the second half of the book. Does cover a lot of workplace topics just because that's where we saw a lot of the biggest disconnects that are happening right now with this generation and the rest of the world.
[00:31:24] Marco Ciappelli: Okay. So another, another bag of food for thoughts here, obviously. And I love that because that's why I do this show.
I want people to walk away with a lot of questions and the line kind of like exploding.
[00:31:39] Leslie Shannon: Well, and sorry, the key with this generation is they are empowered. They are empowered. Their ability to use digital tools and their ability to make money from an incredibly young age gives them empowerment. And so, and that's the difference.
They, it's like, they are the yes I can generation for sure.
[00:32:00] Marco Ciappelli: So let's, let's end this with something that we discussed a little bit before we started recording, which is the perception, somebody perceived this new generation, younger generation as, and I, and I hear that, like, they're not really socially skilled, they come out of school, they don't know what to do because, you know, they've always, and then, you know, we throw the pandemic in there, maybe.
That's a huge,
[00:32:30] Leslie Shannon: yes, that's a huge problem. Yeah.
[00:32:32] Marco Ciappelli: I hear many times talking about teenagers and kids and young adults that do not know how to handle reality and me as a generation x I can also think that way because I'm like yeah I didn't wear a helmet for you know you look at instagram all this generation x being so tough and everything it's like you know what?
Yeah, I break my, you know, I hurt myself a lot. We had
[00:32:54] Leslie Shannon: concrete under our playgrounds.
[00:32:56] Marco Ciappelli: Exactly. I'll see you, you know, when the sun goes down and I'll take care of myself. Maybe,
maybe, maybe
[00:33:03] Marco Ciappelli: not. And now we're leaving, I guess in a little bit of a different world for sure. And so, but, but your Your comment on that it was like actually they have skills and you already presented that that prior generation do not have And so you you don't feel this anxiety anxious anxious generation, but you You had a different perception.
So I would like for you to highlight
[00:33:31] Leslie Shannon: that. Yeah. And, um, and so the, you mentioned Anxious Generation, that's the name of the book by Jonathan Haidt, which is actually out right now. And he's been getting, he's been a lot of interviewing and everything, and it's undeniable. That there are stresses that, um, today's children are, uh, responding to.
Um, and, uh, uh, you know, and, and COVID does have a lot to do with that. A lot of the social isolation and stuff does come from COVID, but the focusing. And I don't want to, I don't want to minimize that or, or, or dismiss it.
[00:34:05] Marco Ciappelli: There's definitely that factor.
[00:34:06] Leslie Shannon: Right. Exactly. However, it's not the whole story. And, and, and Catherine and I wrote this book specifically because we were like, okay, there's all this talk about, you know, the anxious generation, but that's, Not what we see.
And, and so we started digging into, all right, what is, what does the empowered generation look like? And, and that, that's when we fit, we found so much more, we suspected there was something there we found so much more. And, um, yeah, so I think, so I'm, I'm, Super, super bullish on, um, uh, this generation, the generation Z and the one behind them, generation alpha.
Um, they are, I really think they're going to remake the world and for the better. Um, you know, and there's just, there's so many threads to this, you know, you'll have to read the book to find out more, but, uh, the, um, because, because Kids today, they have been, um, interacting with their peers, both in real time on gaming platforms, because you can be gaming, playing against a kid in Malaysia, you know, against a kid in Uganda, you know, uh, you're, you're separate.
Yeah, anyway, it's, it's, you can meet anybody online, and you can also see them in an asynchronous way through TikTok videos. You can see what your peers are doing in other parts of the world. So people are meeting in real time. and understanding and seeing the cultural differences with other people early on and coming to accept them as normal.
And I, this sounds really cheesy, but this may be our best hope for world peace. The fact that the kids of the world now are seeing the entire world and are getting to know them before they get Okay,
[00:35:53] Marco Ciappelli: I see your point. And I do, I do agree. I, I'm not going to go into politics, but I can go into one comment.
Um, when I was studying sociology of communication, you know, we're looking at the global village and Marshall McLuhan. And I do like to say that we now, the global village is, you know, The real global village. As long as we respect the difference and and we're cool with that. I think that's that's the future and I hope the new generation is able to do that because they did grow up with an interconnected world and and the world is not just, you know, the wall in the middle age or, you know, the, the, the local, Or the state tv and radio.
I mean, you, I mean, the excitement of being a kid again at a short wave and hearing somebody talking in Japanese or Spanish, right? Or in Europe where you could get different languages all over. I mean, Now you just go online and you're connecting with people all over the world. I mean, it's, I can see what you're saying here.
[00:37:04] Leslie Shannon: There was a bubble tea place, a boba place that opened up in my neighborhood, like, I don't know, eight years ago. And, um, and I, and I saw, and I was so excited cause I'm like, Oh my God, I've had boba. Um, it's this before boba was super common in the U S and I'm like, Oh, I've had boba in like Singapore and Hong Kong.
I can't wait to introduce my kids to boba. They're going to love it. You know, cause they were kind of like young teenagers at that point. And, and. And, and, and I came home and I'm like, guys, guys, there's this really cool thing that's open in Averitt called Boba Tea. And, and my kids like, Oh, mom, Oh, come on.
We know what Boba is, please. Yeah. You know, it's like they've been seeing it online for years already. And, and so, yeah, you know, uh, these are worldly people. They happen to be young, but they're worldly and they're not afraid to rethink the status quo. And I think it's going to be one of the most consequential generations.
And we need them. We need them for their digital skills. That's why it's worth it for workplaces to accommodate them, even though they might seem like total prima donnas because they're like, why do I need to be doing all this? Well, We need to ask ourselves, the questions they're asking are valid questions.
Why do we need to commute? Why do we need to come into the office? Why do we need to do X? Whatever they ask the question, I generally find it's a valid question to, to, to,
[00:38:21] Marco Ciappelli: yeah. And definitely embracing change and not having the old saying of, we always done it this way. So we're going to have to.
[00:38:30] Leslie Shannon: So that's why, because, because I said so,
[00:38:33] Marco Ciappelli: because I said so.
And because this is how we've done it. I was actually having a really interesting conversation about education and how the education system is so old. It serves its purpose because it's tough to educate everybody in a time. Pre digital virtual metaverse world where you need to sit down 25 kids on a class and you just teach the same to everyone because there's no other way, right?
But now we can talk about adoptive learning and adoptive teaching and things that are in another world and we need to embrace this change. And I agree, I think it will come from those that have been already learning online about this. Well, and I think, I think what we learn,
[00:39:21] Leslie Shannon: uh, we need to rethink what we learn.
Um, you know, the fact that, um, I don't know, I graduated from high school, um, being able to solve a differential equation, but I didn't know what a mortgage was, you know, and that's, that's ridiculous. So, you know, it's, it's, we need, you know, we really need to ground our education, not in what has always been taught, you know, going back to what you said, you know.
Because, because I said so, this is what you need to learn. But genuinely looking at the skills that are needed in this world today and understanding what those worlds are. So, so. Now so much, it may, the skill may not be so much, um, being able to write an essay entirely from scratch. It's how do you write an essay and express yourself well with CHAT GPT as your assistant.
You know, that's the skill. Don't try to ban CHAT GPT. It's a tool. How do we use the tool? That's the teaching that
[00:40:15] Marco Ciappelli: needs to be done. How you make it, how you make it your own and not Exactly.
Exactly.
[00:40:21] Marco Ciappelli: Teaching them. It's like It's about teaching people how to learn. It's not necessarily to force them to learn something and memorize a poem.
Exactly. Without understanding what that poem actually means.
[00:40:35] Leslie Shannon: Right. Or just understanding what's the applicability. Um, you know, the, the, uh, I think we've, we've, uh, I lost some of, you know, I'm not a hardcore utilitarian, but, uh, uh, but I think we do need to apply a little bit of thinking about utility, about what is being taught in schools.
And not everything matches that. And I, uh, just like quick shout out for the arts. I think there's always room for the arts. So I don't want
[00:40:58] Marco Ciappelli: to. Absolutely. Are you kidding me? Yeah, we, uh, I think we touched a lot of interesting and really fundamental Change it and questions and some answer, I guess. But again, I want people to to be thinking right now and and I think your book.
And both books actually will help thinking. I keep thinking that you have the best job in the world and I want to apply to be doing the same job. I remember last time you said that join the line. There is a lot of people that want my job.
[00:41:31] Leslie Shannon: Yeah, I get a lot of people volunteering to be my assistant, which is really nice.
[00:41:36] Marco Ciappelli: I just be happy to have you back here and there and have some of this really fun and open minded. I mean that mind opening. CHAT GPT We need this. We need to stay open. And I think that's why people listen to to my show. And, um, and I hope they keep listening and I will have obviously the way to all the links to connect with you and, uh, to get the books.
I hope you'll be back soon and I hope I'll see you at CES next year because I will be there. 100 percent yes, yes, I will.
[00:42:14] Leslie Shannon: I will be there. See you in Vegas, baby.
[00:42:17] Marco Ciappelli: See you there. See you there. Surrounded by all the possible electronic and mind blowing Futuristic thing that I cannot just wait to, to touch and try and demo and all of that.
So, Leslie, thank you so much. Everybody else, please stay tuned and I'll be back with another show, another episode on the show Redefining Society podcast very soon. Thank you very much.
[00:42:43] Leslie Shannon: Thanks, Marco. Bye, everybody. Bye.