Marco Ciappelli and Sean Martin discuss AI, space technology, and cybersecurity with Debra Emmons, VP and CTO at Aerospace Corporation, emphasizing AI's impact on space exploration and the importance of cybersecurity.
Guest: ✨ Debra Emmons, Chief Technology Officer at Aerospace Corporation [@AerospaceCorp]
On Linkedin | https://www.linkedin.com/in/debra-emmons-0300239/
____________________________
Hosst:
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin
_____________________________
This Episode’s Sponsors
BlackCloak 👉 https://itspm.ag/itspbcweb
Bugcrowd 👉 https://itspm.ag/itspbgcweb
Episode Introduction
In this episode of the Redefining Society podcast, host Marco Ciappelli and co-host Sean Martin engage in a discussion with Debra Emmons, the Vice President and Chief Technology Officer at the Aerospace Corporation.
The conversation covers a wide range of topics, including advancements in space technology, the role of AI in space, space traffic management, and cybersecurity measures for space assets. Emmons provides valuable insights into their technology strategy, investments, and prototypes, particularly focusing on the use of AI in space data analysis and space traffic management.
The episode highlights the potential impact of AI on space technology, collaborative efforts between the government and private companies, and the importance of cybersecurity in space endeavors.
Emmons also discusses the intricate process of developing hardware using simulations and virtual reality, shedding light on the interplay between AI and advancements in hardware.
The episode provides an insightful look into the future of space exploration, technology advancements, and the critical need for cybersecurity measures in space operations.
_____________________________
Resources
Moonlighter: A CTF Challenge in Space | Hack-a-Sat 4 and the State of Space Cybersecurity | A Conversation with Logan Finch, Jason Williams, Aaron Myrick | Redefining CyberSecurity with Sean Martin: https://redefining-cybersecurity.simplecast.com/episodes/moonlighter-a-ctf-challenge-in-space-hack-a-sat-4-and-the-state-of-space-cybersecurity-a-conversation-with-logan-finch-jason-williams-aaron-myrick-redefining-cybersecurity-with-sean-martin
____________________________
To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcast
Watch the webcast version on-demand on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllTUoWMGGQHlGVZA575VtGr9
Are you interested in sponsoring an ITSPmagazine Channel?
👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/advertise-on-itspmagazine-podcast
Exploring the Frontiers: AI, Space Technology, and Cybersecurity with Debra Emmons, Vice President and Chief Technology Officer at the Aerospace Corporation | Redefining Society with Marco Ciappelli and Sean Martin
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
_________________________________________
Marco Ciappelli: [00:00:00] Hello, everybody. This is Marco Ciappelli. Welcome to Redefining Society podcast on ITSP magazine, where we talk about everything at the intersection of technology, cybersecurity and society, and sometimes just one of the three things. And sometimes we just go to space. And today actually That's where we're going to go with me, uh, as a guest and co host to support me in this mission of exploration of the space.
The space outside there is Sean Martin. Sean, welcome. Thank you for coming by. I
Sean Martin: love going to space. So thanks for, uh, the invite.
Marco Ciappelli: Virtually. Or are you actually trying to go to space?
Sean Martin: Uh, that's, uh, I don't know.
Marco Ciappelli: Oh, okay. We'll find out. Maybe there is a, there is a list that you can sign up for.
Sean Martin: I have to produce a few more podcasts to earn enough, earn enough money for that, I think.
Marco Ciappelli: Oh, you're going to pay to do that. You're not going to be, just because you're good at what you do.
Sean Martin: I don't know if I'm [00:01:00] smart enough to, uh, be an astronaut.
Marco Ciappelli: It would be cool, a podcast from space. I'm sure they've done it from the International Space Station. But, uh, listen, I invited you because we have a really cool guest today, which is representing the Aerospace Corporation, and he is the Chief Technology Officer of that organization, Deborah Emmons.
She's here with us today. Hello, Deborah. Welcome to the show.
Debra Emmons: Thank you, Marco. It's great to be here today.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, so I think you got the feeling of the show. It's very laid back. We like to joke, to make jokes, but we also like to give ideas to our audience that may be very curious about what's going on in space and make them think.
About, um, the thing that technology is doing for society and the other way around. This is why we're defining society [00:02:00] podcast. It's, uh, it's doing what it's doing. So a little introduction about yourself and the corporation and what you guys do. And then, uh, we, we will have some questions.
Debra Emmons: Yeah, great.
Well, thank you. Yes. Well, I am the vice president and chief technology officer at the Aerospace Corporation and, um, really in this role, the scope is around our technology strategy and investments as well as our, um, Very exciting set of prototypes, uh, where we're kind of demonstrating, uh, new technologies and new capabilities for our customers.
Um, and then we have, uh, as well in this portfolio, this is really where we're trying to work and harness commercial solutions for our government missions. Um, so it's a pretty interesting portfolio. Again, covers our research and development programs, our prototypes, and our commercial thrusts.
Sean Martin: [00:03:00] Boy, so, so much opportunity for questions here. Yes. I know it's a big, big, pretty big scope.
Debra Emmons: And yes, it's the technology and the innovation and the commercial pieces. Yes. And our, and our innovation prototypes. So yes, it is a, it is a pretty exciting, um, and challenging landscape right now. Yeah.
Sean Martin: So, and we're going to dig into AI as part of this conversation, but I, I want to maybe take a step back from that having, I am smart enough to build products.
I don't know if I'm smart enough to be an astronaut, but, um, it's always an interesting. Assuming you have a chance to have the conversation around what to build, why, when, with whom, internal, external, outsourced, all that stuff. How do you kind of drive those conversations or I'm assuming you drive it? Be part of those conversations to [00:04:00] determine how and what gets built at the Aerospace Corporation.
Debra Emmons: Yeah, that's a great question. And I would say, um, we are, we, uh, make investments in areas to build up capability. And we do kind of look at the landscape. We look at Um, interact with our customers, and so a lot of that investment is trying to evolve capability to respond to near term customer need, but, but we also want to devote some of that money to sort of the future, uh, and then working as well, thinking about, again, we are trying to prototype and, and show and demonstrate capability, and we're not manufacturing, because our charter works.
To operate a federally funded research and development center is really about more the cutting edge. So when we do do prototypes, we're thinking about what is the end game and how do we demonstrate something, but then potentially transfer that technology to to [00:05:00] industry or to be able to demonstrate it that way.
And so I would say, um, you know, in our prototype portfolio, we're 80 percent of that is actually funded by the customers and it's demonstrating some new capability. You know, you can look at recently one of the ones that got a lot of press this earlier this year was called Moonlighter and was done, worked with the Department of Air Force and Air Force Research Lab and it was the first time where we demonstrated in space.
Cyber satellite, uh, it's called a Hack A Sat. It was part of a Hack A Sat competition, and what it did is it allowed the hackers and the community at large to, um, test out sort of algorithms there to try to hack the satellite. And instead of doing that on the ground or the flat sat, This was done, uh, for the first time, uh, in space.
So that was something that the government thought was very [00:06:00] necessary. It was needed in the community. And so we got sponsorship in the last, you know, to build that over the last, you know, couple, couple years.
Marco Ciappelli: Okay, Sean, I'm not holding you here. You can go. I know, I know you had conversation about that.
Sean Martin: Well, I'm not going to capitalize, uh, the, and take over completely, but I will say that, um, that I actually recorded a podcast with the team who, uh, who launched that, uh, that program, uh, or part of it, not obviously as a big team, but some of the, some of the folks who launched the HackASAT Moonlighter. Yes,
Debra Emmons: a lot of them work for me and a lot of them work in our engineering group.
So it's a really nice partnership that we do, right? So we have our folks who work in the engineering and technology group and some that work in our, in our experiments lab.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, that's nice. We're also very connected. It's been connected for many years with the aerospace village at DEFCON, so it's a small world after [00:07:00] all.
Debra Emmons: Yes, right. It's I guess what DEFCON 31 was and it's We've been actively participating in the last number of years, but this one was a particularly, I think, a pretty, um, special event.
Marco Ciappelli: Very cool. It certainly was. Very cool. All right, let me, let me bring this back to, to, to the planet Earth here. And, and, uh, yeah, I like to try to have conversation about the why we do certain things, right?
So. There is many things that have been done and we know that we're going back to the moon, huge satellite, huge observatory telescope out there. We've all witnessed what's been going on. But, but behind the scene, there is a lot of things going on. Apart from the big one that may catch the news, you guys are always very active.
And, and I want to touch to what you were saying before, how do you decide? I mean, is it just the clients that come to you and say, this is what we want, or you drive the [00:08:00] conversation also based on?
Debra Emmons: We're doing both, right? We, we do, we really do look at the landscape and we have our corporate strategy and our strategies.
And so we really do look at. Where do we want to make sure that we are investing and putting in funding for capability to make sure that we get ahead of the customer need? So it's, it's really, you know, both. And so when we look at our investment portfolio of all the R& D investments, we have some things that are Evolutionary capabilities that really are more responding directly to customer need.
And so it's maybe more in responsive there and trying to evolve. And then we have an ability to really be putting in investments into things that are, um, you know, maybe Truly more game changing. Perhaps it's not right now, something the customer's asking for, but if you did implement it, it might change your performance dimension or cost dimension by 3 to 5x and be able to really change the way you do something.
[00:09:00] So we really need to do both in an R& D and an investment portfolio. So that is something we do both of.
Marco Ciappelli: And a lot of people ask for AI nowadays, right?
Debra Emmons: Well, yes, I mean, in fact, AI has been one of our technical and strategic initiative areas. And so and there's a lot of line, you know, lots of lines of effort in there, right?
There's a there's the broader AI. But when we think about it, we're really looking at it. More from, uh, the space and some of the data exploitation and the analytics side, but really the space AI, um, elements is where we have been investing.
So if you, you know, and certainly when you think about the AI general definition or thinking about this is, you know, certainly, um, the ability, you know, where we have the ability of machines to actually perform tasks that usually require this, you know, human intelligence. And we've certainly seen that it's been having a profound effect in a lot of different.
Uh, there's a lot of industries, particularly data rich industries, such as, you know, whether it's [00:10:00] finance or health care or automotive, a lot of terrestrial industries, but there's, you know, definitely places in space where it can also have an impact, uh, and we are starting to see that, uh, we are making investments, um, but certainly there, you know, there's been investments in a lot of places for, for commercial and others to be able to be, uh, investing here, and I think we're, you know, We're starting to realize some of those types of benefits, but I think there's a lot more to go.
Um, you know, I think when you look at AI, you know, I think it's certainly a big area in a big field. And so you can think about, um, you know, first there's sort of AI, which is the biggest, um, the biggest area. And then if you think about these other areas of machine learning or, or deep learning. You know, they're all linked and one, each one is a smaller subset of the preceding, you know, technology.
And, um, we [00:11:00] are working and involved in each of these kinds of areas where, you know, AI being the broader set and requires lots of data and has a lot of, is more instruction based, you know. Machine learning begins to build upon that. It's a smaller subset of AI, but you know, it looks more at relying on patterns, and then you get to an even smaller subset of deep learning, uh, where, you know, you're, you're looking more at neural networks and, and actually Thinking about more of the way the human brain works, right, to try to imitate that.
And then, you know, you can even go to a smaller subset, which is a certainly a number of us are all facing here as we think about generative AI. But we, you know, when you think about how is AI being utilized in space, one of the key areas or burgeoning areas has been in this, uh, area around You know, space traffic management.
Um, you know, I [00:12:00] think right now AI can help our engineers and scientists and the way we've been thinking about and using it is both to analyze data more quickly. And then, um, as well, more automate, you know, be able to automate some of the operations that are on or off a satellite. Um, so that's another key part of this, but, but as you think about this area, you know, in space traffic management, this is a burgeoning area.
And this is really about trying to, um, coordinate. and better understand and manage the activities that are happening in outer space and ensure more safe and responsible use of space assets. And, you know, what's happening, what's been happening in space right now is it's becoming much, you know, many, much more is going on there, right?
You know, there's been a lot written about in the last handful of years about [00:13:00] more and more satellites getting launched into low earth orbit. Uh, so, you know, about 500 to 1, 000 kilometers above the Earth. So, you know, this, I'll say, LEO Constellations, this rapid development of LEO Constellations, and some of it's been actualized, and some of it's still proposed, has meant that there's, you know, more progress in a lot of the different applications areas.
So, you know, more opportunities for communications, more opportunities for navigation and remote sensing, as we have a lot more. Capability. So, you know, the crowding is happening both from a, you know, the physical sense, right? Because you have a lot more satellites up there, a lot more numbers of satellites.
And so there's more congestion. There's more potential for collision. But I think you also have to think about what are the different, you know, the missions that are happening with the, um, you know, there, there's a lot more [00:14:00] data because you have different types of missions. So there's not just the physical assets of the spacecrafts, but each of these satellites is going to have sensors.
And so whether you're. In Earth observation applications, whether it's for, you know, agriculture or forestry or the military or intelligence or even beyond Earth, you're, these assets now are beginning to collect data every day and. You know, we're going to be approaching here terabytes of data. So you have, you know, sensors that collect telemetry and telemetry data is that data that gives you the state and the health of the spacecraft.
And as well, you can collect mission data. And that could be again related to what is the primary objective of this mission of this satellite. Is it to collect, you know, images and pictures? Is it overhead infrared? Is it to, you know, Provide communications data. [00:15:00] So, you know, one of the things that we're really facing here at this time is these is really gobs of data, right?
We have a proliferation of assets and you have a proliferation of that corresponding data. And I think that's kind of an interesting place to be in that we have so much more data in this in this asset that we have to share and we have to manage and work through. So this is a key place where, you know, AI, artificial intelligence solutions can come to bear in helping really us in this thinking, in this future state of space traffic management.
Sean Martin: Wow. My mind just exploded. I think with all the visuals and everything that you just described. And I probably added a few more in there as well. Just the, there's all the ground stuff. There's the flight stuff. There's the in, in orbit stuff. There's all the data and managing all of it. And yes, epic, like you [00:16:00] described.
And you even touched on the human with the neural neurological data. And I'm wondering how, so AI gives us an opportunity to. Do something with that data and each, each purpose built satellite can leverage it to analyze its data from sensors and whatnot, and presumably satellite data can be merged together to provide bigger pictures.
You talked about agriculture. I grew up on a farms that's near and dear to my heart. I lived in a place that was prone to wildfires. So satellites that look for, for, uh, areas that are prone and, or have Have spot fires that can break out as another area of interest. Right. Are there, is there anyone looking at this picture, and I presume it might be you and your team, to say here's how best to pull the data we need together to solve bigger [00:17:00] problems that wasn't possible five, ten years ago?
Debra Emmons: Well yeah, so I mean that's a great question and I think we are, we are working in this area and we as a Uh, you know, with your opening remarks about where do, where are we, uh, making investments, and where do we think, you know, our important capability. This is an area that we are working and looking at to be able to work with our customers, as well as the burgeoning industry component of this.
Because the other piece of this is that All of this AI is really an intersection, intersecting between the, you know, the, the, the government elements as well as private companies that really see new business applications and new business needs here and we are, uh, working in that, a lot of those spaces with the government to be able to leverage new commercial capability, [00:18:00] uh, to be able to work together.
Through all that and and that is one of the areas we're doing as part of this new commercial space futures office Where maybe areas that didn't have as much commercial or are really burgeoning, right? So there's a lot more capability a lot of companies are looking at the business plans But there's a number of places right where you talked about so some of the ways that ai companies can come to bear is on the You know, just in terms of where, you know, the, you know, not, you know, I'll say the knowledge and management around it, protection and continuity of those space based assets.
Um, there's all kinds of work around, you know, characterizing those objects, you know. There's the data processing and the analysis. So part of it is AI and processing large amounts of data from various sources. So we are working through that. Some of that is on the, um, looking at how do you bring in more data into these sources?
So you can, um, you know, connect some [00:19:00] of this, right. And be able to have more, uh, data that can help us on the data processing and analysis. There's also, you know, the, the collision avoidance side. So I think, You know, some of these constellations that are being put in place, there's more that you can do to be a, I'll say, a good steward here.
You can, you know, develop AI algorithms here, um, to help analyze the other trajectories or help to prevent collisions. Um, you know, to maybe do some more on the collision avoidance side and maneuvers. Um, you know, space. Is a global commons. Now, uh, we are working here and have been also working on that side.
I mean, there are over 70 countries from the cross the globe that operate active satellites. Uh, and so part of the space traffic management piece or side that we're working on as well in our in our role is. In looking at the, what are responsible space [00:20:00] operations and what are some of the things that you need to do to have a proper end of life disposal of satellite to prevent, you know, adding to this space debris problem, um, you know, there needs to, you know, thinking through what are those responsible practices, uh, On the crowded side, because you know, again, from just the forecasts alone, there are expected to be even more satellites and constellations around different types of businesses in these areas that will come to bear.
Um, so that is a place where I think we are working and certainly where we're not, we see that, you know, commercial companies, uh, can, are working and where they can enhance, um, their plans around this to enhance the space traffic management side of things, um, through AI. The other areas, right, on maybe in participation in [00:21:00] some of these space traffic management governance activities, you know, we're trying to be part of and drive industry associations and forum around space safety and space traffic management. There's also some ways to begin to move towards.
Collaborating on some of the standards, right? Having some formats that simplifies things so you can have more information exchange. Um, I think, you know, and also even just discussing maybe some of our, you know, the areas that are, uh, working R& D initiatives can also improve their, you know, how do you improve the algorithms?
to do better on the prediction and do better on the tracking and, and even, uh, you know, there's places where we can be more innovative on the, on the propulsion systems, right? So perhaps, you know, have more efficient orbital maneuvers. So some of these things are things that, you know, companies may do, but then there are some of these things that may be [00:22:00] done more through, um, through, you know, through, uh, Governance or through educating the, you know, working with the space community broadly.
Marco Ciappelli: Right. So I want to go, first of all, every time you say traffic, I mean, imagine this 405 that goes from all around for people. We are in LA area, so we know what 405 is. Yes. Highway is always packed. It doesn't matter what time of the day. So that's, that's what's going on in space. That's, that's the. Kind of sad.
No, but apart from the joke, I, I wanted to ask you as we get close to an end here, how we can leverage, and I'm sure you're already leveraging AI for developing, um, the hardware as well. So apart from analyzing the data, coming back to the planet, because that's usually the answer for the people that are [00:23:00] like, Oh, why are we going to space?
You know, to, Often to advance the technology that we have here and then maybe even more philosophical answer, but we stay there But I'm assuming that because you you don't have to go by trial and error only anymore as NASA done for for a very long time you have bigger capability in term of really creating A new hardware just by making simulation virtual reality.
I mean, is there some example that you can give us about that?
Debra Emmons: Well, I would I would say that there's definitely um an interplay there and I think more and more of the of our i'll say Uh, even our prototypes, we have a line of Aerocube satellites, small satellites, uh, that we've been, uh, demonstrating new capability for the last two, two decades.
Uh, but what we're seeing more and more of is, is more integrated compute at on the [00:24:00] edge and more ways of bringing some of the processing using advanced algorithm AI algorithms on board. Um, and so we're seeing just more capability ultimately delivered because whether we're doing the processing some on the ground or the algorithms are getting smarter or we're doing more edge processing some of our more advanced remote sensing Types of, um, CubeSats are using and combining AI, and so that just means that the overall hardware or software solution is, is enhanced.
And some of our latest, uh, prototypes, ones that we've just delivered to different customers, uh, and then ones that, uh, are in development in the remote sensing area. Uh, are definitely using more of the AI algorithms and, uh, say, uh, commute, computing.
Sean Martin: So I, I, I [00:25:00] can't, I can't go any longer without asking this. Go for it. All right. So I, I painted a slightly utopian picture of all these. Satellites working together and uh, entities, public and private, sharing information for the greater good of society and hopefully we, we reach that point. But, but not everybody does, does what they do for, for the grander.
good of society. They do it for themselves. They do it to make their companies better and get a competitive advantage for nation states to have the upper hand against others. And with this, I look at two different things related to cyber security. One is protecting the data that's being generated in space for space for humanity on earth from [00:26:00] space.
And then there's Leveraging the, this aerospace infrastructure to protect us here on earth. So two, two big topics there, but I don't know if you want to shed some light on one or the other, or both on things we're doing to, to protect ourselves from ourselves. You touched on the HackASAT. Um, so that's kind of protecting the infrastructure of space, but how about, how about the data and, and, uh, protecting earthlings?
From using space.
Debra Emmons: Yeah, so we have some, certainly some work going on there in a whole area in our in our cyber security and advanced platforms work. That's been an area that's really been growing over the last few years, whether it's And it's kind of across all the lines [00:27:00] of engineering, um, some of it might be on the acquisition risk management side and, um, uh, system security engineering to, um, actually looking at what are some of the next gen crypto requirements and bringing, you know, the crypto design into play.
place. Um, there's work in, um, you know, the spacecraft security itself in terms of the space vehicle security and understanding sort of the way the threats, um, can impact this, the spacecraft themselves. Um, so it's, you know, there's space vehicle pen testing and prototypes that were worked and, you know, test beds and mitigations there.
Um, so that's another whole area that we, we work in understanding, you know, what are the next gen space vehicle requirements, the spacecraft security. Um, there's also a whole area around, you know, defensive cyber, understanding the, uh, [00:28:00] You know, the response and the mitigations. And so, you know, just like in the case of the, the hacker, you want to look at where your vulnerabilities are and then understand how to make those enhancements.
Um, so I would say that this whole area is, um, certainly crossed, um, all of those kinds of service lines, um, You know, there's also important to look at, you know, the supply chain, uh, as well, supply chain risk management, um, so that's another area, thinking about, um, again, types of simulations, types of assessments, so just really looking at, um, bringing this in, into the forefront, and then I would say that even a place for, uh, the, the strategies and how do you, um, mitigate and how do you, what is, what is a governance constructs.
So I would say that the whole area of cyber security, cyber engineering, bringing cyber, uh, [00:29:00] into, um, our platforms, um, and on better understanding that has been something that we are trying to get a, uh, get ahead of that need, um, and respond to that. That's, you know, there's the threats and computing needs across the whole space enterprise and it's, they're continuing to evolve and in some ways move faster than.
Then we all industry, all of us can, can effectively respond. So I think that is something that we have to continue to do and work through. And, and so we're definitely working in all of those areas around, you know, acquisition network support and different types of, you know, looking at architectures and, and doing that.
So I've spacecraft security and, and looking at the responses and mitigations. So that is an area that we have been.
Marco Ciappelli: And who knows what you're going to work on in five years from now, [00:30:00] because, you know, I mean, the, uh, the rhythm that, that space has been, I'm thinking that all the commercialization of space, I mean, all the company, the now private company that before you didn't have, and I'm, I'm assuming there are many more, which you probably already work with.
So it will be interesting to see how this, uh, this highway is going to connect Here with, uh, with planet earth and of course, um, everything done as you clearly explain with the, with security in mind and keeping, no, no, I mean, I remember I've, I've been lucky enough to have several astronauts on my, on my show.
And when we talk about the history of NASA, you know, the idea of going to the moon and bring people safe back was always, uh, at the core of everything that, that, that. You know, when you send somebody in space, you're not just tossing the coin, right? That's right. So you're doing everything you can and hopefully, [00:31:00] and for sure, nowadays, technology, data, and AI can probably help us to do it even with more security, not only from a cyber security perspective, but security for the people that are.
Going to to space. Um, so sean if you can find the money, I guess you you can you can do it securely
Sean Martin: I'll have to flip the bitcoin, uh when I go to space Um, no, this is I mean super super cool conversation I think as a, as an engineer at heart, uh, I can appreciate a lot of, a lot of what you described, Debra, and, um, I think it's important for, for folks to know, especially those, uh, those listening to Marco's show, uh, Redefining Society, that there's a lot of future planning and visionary stuff [00:32:00] taking place in, in your organization.
That's, that's a huge impact on, on how we live on a daily basis. And, uh, It's going to be exciting to see what you and the team pull together in collaboration with the public and private sector.
Debra Emmons: Yeah, you're spot on. It's pretty exciting times. A lot of uncertainty in the future, but I think some some real, you know, opportunities here and some ways to work differently across commercial and government.
Definitely exciting times.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, and we are excited and very thankful for For you to have found the time to join us. I hope that our audience enjoyed the conversation. Maybe they'll check out what you guys are doing on your website and always be interested about space. I know that the episode that we talk about.
Anything related to space they usually get a really nice audience because I guess people love to stay With the nose up and look at what's going on [00:33:00] So, thank you very much and Sean, thank you for bringing uh, You always make me feel more secure when you're on because you you put security Uh ahead you really care about security and that's great
Debra Emmons: Well, thank you.
I appreciate the opportunity and I enjoyed enjoyed the discussion
Marco Ciappelli: Of course, very grateful. Everybody else, stay tuned. There'll be many more episodes here on Redefining Society podcast, so be sure to click the subscribe button and stay tuned for many, many more. Take care, everybody.