In this episode of On Location with Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli, recorded during the Australian Cyber Conference 2024 in Melbourne, hosts Marco Ciappelli and Sean Martin welcome EJ Wise, an expert in cyber law and ethics. Together, they explore the critical and complex intersections of technology, law, and societal impact, highlighting the challenges and opportunities in this rapidly evolving space.
Guest: EJ Wise, Founder & Principal, WiseLaw
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/wiselaw3/
Hosts:
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martin
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Notes
Against the energetic backdrop of Melbourne's CyberCon, hosted by ISA, the conversation dives into the global nature of technology's influence. The trio reflects on pressing topics such as privacy, cybersecurity, and the shifting landscape of cyber law, all while situated in one of Australia’s most tech-forward cities.
EJ Wise’s Journey and Perspective
EJ Wise shared her remarkable career path, starting as a member of the U.S. Air Force JAG Corps and later founding her boutique law firm in Australia in 2018. Her firsthand experience sheds light on Australia’s relatively recent introduction of comprehensive cyber laws and the ongoing need to bridge the gap between technological innovation and legislative action.
Educating Consumers: A Shared Responsibility
A key focus of the conversation was consumer awareness. EJ highlighted the critical need for industries to take responsibility for educating the public, much like banks have historically done with financial literacy. The discussion also touched on embedding technological literacy into early education, ensuring children grow up with a clear understanding of privacy and digital security.
Technology and Ethics in Tension
The group examined the ethical challenges posed by advancing technologies, especially regarding surveillance and data privacy. From facial recognition in retail spaces to the increasing capabilities of modern devices to monitor user behavior, the conversation drew thought-provoking parallels between these innovations and the history of advertising practices.
The ethical implications of such technologies go far beyond convenience, raising questions about transparency, consent, and societal norms in the digital age.
Legal Frameworks and Industry Responsibility
Marco and Sean explored the evolving role of legal frameworks in holding industry players accountable for consumer safety and privacy. EJ’s insights provided a grounded perspective on how regulatory environments are adapting—or struggling to adapt—to these challenges.
The discussion underscored a growing trend: companies must not only comply with existing laws but also anticipate and mitigate the societal impacts of their technologies.
Encouraging Dialogue and Reflection
Throughout the episode, the importance of open dialogue and introspection emerged as a recurring theme. By examining how technology shapes society and law, the discussion encouraged listeners to reflect on their digital habits and the privacy trade-offs they make in their daily lives.
Conclusion
While the conversation didn’t provide all the answers, it illuminated the complexities of the interplay between technology, law, and society. EJ, Marco, and Sean left listeners with an invitation to remain curious, question norms, and consider their role in shaping a more ethically aware digital future.
This episode captures the spirit of CyberCon 2024—sparking ideas, inspiring debate, and reinforcing the need for thoughtful engagement with the challenges of our hybrid analog-digital society.
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Resources
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From Bytes to Rights: The Intersection of Law and Cyber Security | An Australian Cyber Conference 2024 in Melbourne Conversation with EJ Wise | On Location Coverage with Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: We're rolling.
[00:00:02] Sean Martin: We're
[00:00:02] Marco Ciappelli: rolling. Alright. Put the phone away. I know.
[00:00:06] Sean Martin: What's the matter with you?
[00:00:07] EJ Wise: We're at the table, honey.
[00:00:09] Marco Ciappelli: ITSP. Do we want this here? I don't know. Put it here.
[00:00:13] Sean Martin: ITSP peace and love.
[00:00:15] Marco Ciappelli: ITSP peace and love. This is from a very, um, few years ago in San Francisco RSA conference.
We wanted to go with peace and love. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Well, it was pretty successful. But we're not in San Francisco. We're in Melbourne. There's no more peace and love.
[00:00:30] EJ Wise: I
[00:00:30] Marco Ciappelli: think there is peace and love here too, right?
[00:00:33] EJ Wise: Kindness is universal. Very good. And we could do with a bit more of it in our industry and all industries.
[00:00:38] Sean Martin: I think you're right there. I think you're right there.
[00:00:40] Marco Ciappelli: But I do get that. When we meet at conferences and we run into people we know, there's always like hugs and, you know, sharing, like, what have you been, what have you been doing. It's not just, you know, It's hard sell all the time, which is a good thing.
[00:00:54] EJ Wise: Yeah, it is. It is. Cool. Yeah.
[00:00:57] Sean Martin: Well, for those listening that can't see EJ Wise sitting with us, they hear her voice.
I'm very thrilled to have you here,
[00:01:07] EJ Wise: EJ. Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:01:09] Sean Martin: We're at CyberCon, hosted by ISA, and uh, it's been a great week here in Melbourne. Yeah. Lots of, uh, fun. Lots of great conversations.
We've talked a little bit about law. We've talked about privacy. We've talked about security, operations, society, culture, lots of fun stuff. Policy has been a big, big part of the topic of discussion. A lot of stuff recently here in australia taking place as well. Um, but a few words E. J. about some of the work that you do, maybe some of your background as well to kind of set the stage for folks listening.
[00:01:44] EJ Wise: Yeah. Thank, thank you. So, I, I guess to set the background, I was living in the States until 2016. I was on orders to the Pentagon. I was working with the United States Air Force JAG Corps, um, who incidentally, who incidentally
So I had to do the Jag School with all the brand new Jags, even though I'd been a Jag for some time. I was the oldest playing dodgeball.
[00:02:12] Sean Martin: That's probably an episode I want to
[00:02:14] EJ Wise: We can do that one online. Let me just say my height is not conducive to winning a good dodgeball, but I'm very competitive, so that was unpleasant.
But beautiful people and a wonderful tour at the Pentagon, where I was born. I was fortunate to be able to work on the law of the war manual, the cyber chapter. Um, and then when I retired, I decided to start a little boutique law firm in 2018 in really what kind of was the Wild West. Australia coming back here after eight years in the States.
Um, in 2016, it was like stepping back one and a half decades for cyber. It really, uh, we weren't there. We still had this, which we still had this legacy Privacy Act, which is dated 1988. Um, there are changes afoot, obviously. We didn't have, for an external, you know, When you were talking to the Europeans, or the English, or Americans, or Canadians, they'd say, Well, where's your, where's your cyber legislation?
They wouldn't find it, because we didn't have anything other than a very small amendment to the Criminal Act, um, which had the words, So they go, well, Australia has no, without looking at comparative laws, Australia has no cyber laws. And we didn't until three days ago. So, it's, it's felt like a very, um, a very early, um, phase over the last, you know, little while that I've had the firm, where it wasn't recognised as a part of the profession.
I couldn't get the Law Society to give me specialist accreditation as, you know, a cyber lawyer, um, and yet now, after many breaches, um, We've moved on, and there are a lot of lawyers identifying as cyber law, so that's, that's interesting.
[00:04:02] Sean Martin: I was going to say, even if there was no national law, I would venture to guess there was a lot of activity from a legal perspective still.
Absolutely. Yeah,
[00:04:09] EJ Wise: and so what do you do? You know, water will flow. Always find ITSP course and so people would use consumer legislation or, um, you know, the government would, would, you know, try and charge directors under the Corporations Act. So there was, there's always a way to do it, but it's possibly not always the best way.
I
[00:04:29] Marco Ciappelli: mean, even in the United States before developing certain law, you were referring to the media law back from the early eighties, if I'm not wrong. And Europe was doing the same thing, so I mean we, technology has been moving really, really fast and, and it moves faster than, than society, that's for sure.
[00:04:50] EJ Wise: Absolutely. And we're so intertwined with it, um, I was just giving a talk earlier, um, on a panel and we were discussing how, for example, I'm not expected to be any kind of mechanical engineer to buy a vehicle. Right. I'm not expected to be a civil engineer to, to drive over a bridge. Uh, but you send me in to a shop to buy, let's say, a robot vacuum.
And if I don't know technology, and if I don't know how it works, and I don't know how data is stored and collected, I think I might only be just looking at how much data there is. Dust, it's collecting, but actually I need to know what data it's collecting. Mm-Hmm. and how it's storing it and, and who, where it's going and, and, and so I feel that certainly in Australia we need to, to write that imbalance because it's way too much on consumers who should not have to be technology specialists just to purchase everyday items.
[00:05:48] Sean Martin: It's interesting. We were, a few times during our conversations over the past few days, we talked about, and I think you liked this one, Marco, the, in order to drive a car, you don't just get your license one day and start driving. You work, you have, you have experiences in life, being on the road with your parents and what have you, taking a test, you get a license, and you continue to learn and become a better driver.
Hopefully, still break laws, probably, some, some folks. I feel like in the States, if
[00:06:17] EJ Wise: you don't You are going to get someone rear ending you.
[00:06:21] Sean Martin: But there's an entity, a vehicle that we're trained on and a set of infrastructure that's fairly constant that we're trained on.
There's so many devices in the digital world. Phones and vacuums and watches and, I mean, Is there a way to connect that? Can we train on the infrastructure and devices generally? And is a license the way to go or? Or, do we put the onus, maybe from a legal perspective, is another topic of conversation we have.
Should the providers of this stuff really be liable?
[00:07:05] EJ Wise: So this is a really interesting thing that I feel that both the health sector in America and in Australia have tried to address. The heart foundation comes to mind where, um, you know, you do have to be a little bit of a food scientist about your body when you're going into the supermarket or any store.
Um, and, and you are trying to read the back of the product to understand what am I consuming? Is this going to be good for my health or not? And we've all seen like the abscesses. Abundance of new types of people who are maybe more protein heavy or whatever. All these later things. All of us have a little bit of grey hair.
We've been around, you know, we remember the old fashioned food triangle that we were raised on. Um, so in that sense I feel that consumers were at least given a hand. Now the health star rating isn't always that accurate, but you could, if you wanted to, take the time to read the calorie, calorie nutrient information, you could read through the ingredient list if you, you know, if you had really good glasses and, and you could see which things were in there.
And for, for example, when I first moved to the States, I had this thing Corn high fractos, corn syrup was the devil. But I was happy with my children having pure white sugar, that's fine. In fact, if I could find soda, as it was called, um, that had sugar, like the Mexican based one, I'd be like, oh, this is so exciting, we can give this to the kids, it's fine.
Um, so you get your, you get your, Quirks about it, but we have a base level of understanding, and I think that came from elementary school, where we talked about nutrition. And I know that some elementary schools talk about tech. I remember Obama's day of coding, my kids did that. So I think it does start early, that education piece, I think you're absolutely spot on.
I think it's really important how we do it, because the most likely place it can be afforded isn't actually the government, it's going to be industry. coming in and, and, and teaching. And so I don't know whether you had the same scheme in the States, but in, in Australia, we used to have that one of the local banks would be allowed to form a, a kind of partnership in a school and it would come and teach about financial literacy.
But it also got a kickback because those children would open an account with that particular brand of bank. And I, I think that's now been stopped. But there was a real plus side to it, which was that it was free financial education and literacy for these students that learnt, if I put in 20 cents a week, this bank will give me whatever it was, you know, 5 percent interest.
And it was compound interest, it was really good. So I feel there's maybe a branding opportunity, maybe it could be co done with government, but I do feel we need to get in early because our future. is certainly intertwined with, with tech. As we enter our declining years, which we need to realize we're doing, right?
We enter different forms of disability with aging. We, we, us three, let alone the audience, hi audience, uh, we're going to become reliant on tech in different ways we haven't yet imagined. Um, so for goodness sakes, for the future programmers who are still being born, let's get them educated early to be comfortable with it, familiar with it, and, and even You know, basic device hygiene, if you don't want it hearing what you do in bed, maybe don't have a device in your bedroom.
[00:10:29] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I mean, there is a lot of ethics and ethical conversation that we can have around this topic, but I think when you look at I think it's Jean Jacques Rousseau when he said that you have to force people to be free sometimes. Oftentimes. And that's why regulation needs to come in at a certain point.
To go back to your car example, if I buy a car, I'm sure that, you know, it's been tested, it's been You can vet it, like the brakes, the ABS system and all of that. So I don't need to be a mechanic, right? Not
[00:11:04] Sean Martin: always. And there are recalls and they're liable if
[00:11:06] Marco Ciappelli: something happens. Something happened, but they are liable and they, you know, and you got to trust something in some way.
And so you do need the regulation. So the legal and cyber, to me, like, are you focusing on the consumer side? So far we've been talking. We
[00:11:24] EJ Wise: have been talking about consumer side. I tend to represent, um, industry, um, I'll run, you know, the self insured who don't have cyber insurance and suddenly need uh, an attorney or a lawyer because they've been popped.
Um, I'll go in. I like to be the first responder before any cyber team's gone in if we're going to try and preserve privilege. Um, and I think my, my joy, maybe 21 years in the air force. Which is what we call fake war. So you're always training, training, training. Exercising, exercising for the real thing. So my, I think my favourite joy is to go in with an already fairly mature organisation that realises it wants to run an incident.
And we pretend that a nasty incident has happened and is evolving. That's probably my favorite thing. Um, but I'll also do governance and, and dull stuff. I wanted to dig back down on your point, if you don't mind, before I forget it. Um, which is that, um, do you, are you both old enough to remember when subliminal advertising was illegal?
[00:12:30] Marco Ciappelli: I saw a subliminal, um, advertiser once, but only for a few seconds. Ha
[00:12:36] EJ Wise: ha ha! Oh, that's good. Okay, we're on to the last. Yeah,
[00:12:39] Marco Ciappelli: I remember that.
[00:12:41] EJ Wise: I
[00:12:43] Marco Ciappelli: come from advertising. Oh, you do?
[00:12:45] EJ Wise: Okay. So, am I wrong that those laws are no longer adhered to because everyone has a device two inches from their nose? that is doing this all day every day.
It's, it's, it's not just nudging, it's training. Am I wrong?
[00:13:00] Marco Ciappelli: Um, I, I don't, I couldn't say yes or not, but I mean, I, I, I'm sure they use it.
[00:13:07] Sean Martin: How often do laws get removed? Are you asking the laws exist? No, I'm asking
[00:13:12] EJ Wise: about the, The process of information operations and information warfare. I'm very familiar with this.
Other people call it advertising. And I'm saying, I watch my child's device in his hands or her hands. And the rate at which they scroll and the amount of information that's bombarding their eyeballs. There's
[00:13:30] Marco Ciappelli: probably a strong connection to what the subliminal advertiser could do. Like you realize, It's probably the, I mean the subliminal advertising was that you see something that you don't realize that you see at a conscious level, but subconsciously you would see the message.
[00:13:48] EJ Wise: You should see it. So, so those things on the side of, remember our old email, before we had all this mobile phones and stuff, but you remember the old email and there'd just be ads along the side and you're not actively looking. Yeah, and you don't see it but peripherally you would see it. But it's gone into your brain.
We're now, it's front and centre, um, for example, if you left a maternity ward with your baby and a tray of cocaine, the government would say, oh you know what, with that cocaine, just take it, it's kind of addictive. It's kind of addictive. Just be, just be, you know, the government would care, they'd give me health warnings.
Heck, have you seen, I don't know if you smoke, but have you seen the price of cigarettes in Australia? It's like 70 for a packet here, okay? So the government wants to look after you generally. Where are you? Where are you? And I don't agree that a social media ban for 16 year olds is the answer. I'm saying at the point of sale, the person that benefITSP is the one that I believe owes the duty.
So I do sound like a little bit of a consumer right here. I
[00:14:50] Marco Ciappelli: see where you're going.
[00:14:51] EJ Wise: So if I'm purchasing a phone, give me the freaking health warning.
[00:14:57] Marco Ciappelli: Mm-Hmm.
[00:14:58] EJ Wise: before I purchase that for my child.
[00:15:00] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Yep. No, I, I agree.
[00:15:03] Sean Martin: I want to want, when you read the warning
[00:15:04] EJ Wise: though, I want the health
[00:15:05] Sean Martin: rating. The, the software organizations already have the U list.
Right.
[00:15:10] Marco Ciappelli: Which we don't
[00:15:10] Sean Martin: read presumably, so of
[00:15:12] EJ Wise: course we don't read. He has the time. Not even a lawyer
[00:15:14] Marco Ciappelli: read that.
[00:15:15] EJ Wise: He has the time. I know one lawyer that reads it, , Annie. Uh, but yeah, I, I think. I think we have to, I know it's a capitalist trickle down economy. People still
[00:15:26] Sean Martin: smoke, people still drink, people still speak.
[00:15:29] EJ Wise: Yes, but we give them some knowledge. I'm not
[00:15:33] Sean Martin: disagreeing.
[00:15:35] EJ Wise: There's no picture of someone with tooth decay on the side of my Apple phone, but there is if they'll purchase a cigarette. I would like that kind of No, I, I
[00:15:46] Marco Ciappelli: agree. I, I love this kind of conversation. I mean, I, I do a podcast that is all about technology and society.
So this is, and I also am a Generation X, so I got excited the first time I saw Walkman, right. Or I used to play with wifi. I since. And, and, and they don't, they did come with, with a manual and I was in charge. My dad will be like, I don't understand this stuff. You figure it out.
[00:16:10] EJ Wise: Yes.
[00:16:11] Marco Ciappelli: Right. So I was the IT guy in the house at the time, but, but you will, you will look at the manual, you will figure out things, you understand the basic thing that how it works out to break it apart to a certain level or not.
Now, now you get a phone that, A, you can't even break apart, you have no idea what it does, right? Many people don't even think it has a GPS or whatever it does. The Roomba vacuum, it's, you know, scanning your entire house and listening up. So, there is so I'm known that and, and, and, and I think that a basic education, it needs to be done.
[00:16:53] EJ Wise: I 100 percent agree. So, you know, in, in math, as my, as my children went through from elementary to, you know, middle school to high school, whatever, the calculators got more sophisticated and the school taught them along the way. So I'm not, I don't see why just the fact that you've produced children makes you the expert in teaching them technology.
Like, sure, I can put that down. I can say, Oh, it doesn't go into your bedroom after 10 or I can, I can be a parent.
[00:17:19] Marco Ciappelli: It just got too complicated. It's, it's
[00:17:22] EJ Wise: so hard. It's, it's, it's okay for me if I'm in the tech industry, but I do not expect the mainstream person to A, know it for themselves or B, know it for their children.
But I think, I think maybe too often about the future I'll have as a slightly disabled or fully disabled person. We all reach this with aging. How are we preparing the future people who are creating around us and for us in this society?
[00:17:47] Sean Martin: What are we
[00:17:47] EJ Wise: willing to trade
[00:17:48] Sean Martin: off? I want to make this point, I don't know if it makes sense or not.
Often I don't, often I don't. But we talked about the bridge. You don't have to be a civil engineer to drive over a bridge. And so there, there are standards and government practices to ensure that that's safe. Yes. Um, where was I going with this? That's for the greater of society. Yes. Lots of people cross that bridge, and if there's a problem with the bridge caused by a person, then, I don't know.
I guess the point is, it's a societal issue. Benefit that the government has an oversight there. Um, for the phone, I think we, we typically look at it as a one on one. Our misuse generally doesn't break the bridge down.
[00:18:36] EJ Wise: I see.
[00:18:37] Sean Martin: And cause pain for a lot of people. Now where, this is my connection that may hopefully make sense of what I'm trying to say here.
I have a huge problem going into somebody's house with an Amazon thing. Where I'm being recorded. On the street and there's some glasses listening and recording my conversation or the broader conversation of everybody in this hallway. And it now impacts a larger group of people. So I, I personally believe that we've reached a point where this affects many, not just an individual.
And it's not just about us choosing whether or not we're eating an orange versus a donut. Right. Right. It's, it's, society is impacting society. And I think because of that, something needs to happen that the device lower, device and network and whatever.
[00:19:32] EJ Wise: Yeah, well, you know, I've, if I tried to impose myself into your personal life as much as me just wearing those glasses sitting next to you would do, it would be an outrage.
It would be a form of assault. Mm hmm. But because I've bought the glasses, it's somehow acceptable. Right. Mm hmm. Yeah, so there was a recent piece of case law in, um, Australia, where Bunnings, which is our Home Depot, had been collecting facial AI. Without consent, there'd be no, you know, notice to the consumers, to the customers going into the
[00:20:06] Sean Martin: store.
There was a recent thing on this. They're very
[00:20:08] EJ Wise: recent. Yeah, yeah. So they got, they got, So in that way, I mean, I don't like the idea of a big brother, but I like a government that is, that is caring for ITSP citizens where we, it's beyond our capability to know. You're innocently going through that store and between these dates, and your image is scooped up.
And they actually had, if you, if If you like, um, Bunnings had a, a kind of good public policy reason behind it, which was to make their staff safe because there'd been some violent customers and they were the known people. But, but just because you have an altruistic purpose doesn't mean you get to take shortcuts with people's liberties.
So here's
[00:20:44] Sean Martin: your case. Really? Everybody entering. And they were actually, for the same reason, right, they wanted to keep baddies out. Um, but they were keeping their own, their own definition of baddies. Yeah. They were screening people they didn't, competitors. Um, people that, that, uh, basically would impact their business.
Business. Wow. Not just impact the safety of the people inside. Scope.
[00:21:10] EJ Wise: So there was some kind of scope
[00:21:11] Sean Martin: creep. Yeah. And I don't think anything
[00:21:14] Marco Ciappelli: was So I'm going to give three quick things. Alright. One. One. 2018, we were in a car. 2019, Singapore RSA conference. We're talking to the cab driver and he was telling us that if an accident happened and Nobody gets hurt.
People just get out the car and they exchange what they have to exchange because there is a camera that probably saw what happened. Yes. And then they can, through that, decide which insurance is gonna pay. Yes. And we ask but don't you feel like they're always watching you? It's like we'd rather like yeah but they keep me safe.
So I'm okay with that. Number one. Then
[00:21:55] EJ Wise: social contract.
[00:21:56] Marco Ciappelli: Social contract. Okay. Then there are other situations like the one you said. Years ago I went to a boarded a flight on Lufthansa to go to to my family in Italy and they asked me the first time, do you want to use face recognition when you go on the plane?
I said no. But when I get on the plane, we don't need to see your passport, just look in here. So hey, I didn't authorize you. Now I use clear, so whatever. They can scan my rating now, go for it. And the other one that I just learned not too long ago, you go park near a Tesla.
[00:22:30] EJ Wise: Yes. And Tesla
[00:22:31] Marco Ciappelli: is going to film you
[00:22:33] EJ Wise: as soon
[00:22:34] Marco Ciappelli: as you get close enough in the perimeter of the car.
[00:22:38] EJ Wise: As soon as you're within range. If you, if you
[00:22:42] Marco Ciappelli: turn it on in the, in the car. Car and somebody scratch it or might, if you park near it, you you'll be on it. Yes. So where do we, is it too late? I don't wanna be dystopian, but is it too late? Isn't the paste out of the tube and I can the, the send you
[00:23:00] EJ Wise: the cat outta the back.
So, so a couple of views on that. One is that we have the right to look at people. You know, there's that cat can look at a king. So I can use my Mark I eyeball when you get out of your car. Right. And I think, so the Elon Musk argument, if you like, there about Tesla is that camera is not doing anything that a Mark Eyeball is that we both know, in Bunnings case, Madison Square, it is doing more.
It's collecting that data, and it's storing it somewhere, and I don't know where you're storing it, and I don't know what other purposes you might use it for.
[00:23:35] Sean Martin: Extended use, yeah.
[00:23:37] EJ Wise: And so maybe if we achieve nothing else with this podcast, people won't park near Teslas. And I think that's, I think we're ahead.
I think we're, you know, peace, love and joy. But
[00:23:47] Marco Ciappelli: we're trading convenience for something else. But somebody else is trading But do we know? But do we
[00:23:54] Sean Martin: know? Somebody else in this case is trading our privacy for their convenience.
[00:24:01] EJ Wise: Well this is it. And the person who invites you into their home with Amazon Home, they may not warn you.
You may have been there half an hour and then you realize. I don't know if you've had the joy yet of experiencing one of our, uh, Supermarkets. It's basically two Woolworths and Coles or you can go to Aldi. But when you, if you go through the self checkout, you'll look up and you'll see your own image there.
[00:24:23] Marco Ciappelli: Mm hmm.
[00:24:24] EJ Wise: Yeah, I've seen it at Amazon
[00:24:26] Marco Ciappelli: Fresh in the
[00:24:27] EJ Wise: States. Right, oh yeah, oh yes. Right, so that's taken over all the Trader Joe's, is that right?
[00:24:33] Marco Ciappelli: Trader Joe's, no. Or Whole
[00:24:34] EJ Wise: Foods, that you don't go to the checkout anymore, right.
[00:24:37] Sean Martin: Whole Foods is Amazon.
[00:24:38] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah.
[00:24:38] EJ Wise: Right.
[00:24:39] Sean Martin: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:40] Marco Ciappelli: So to go back to, and that's how we can finish, but to go back to, To the banking, they used to come to your school or to the school and give you a service in exchange of maybe of selling you something.
I think that's not, it's not a bad idea.
[00:24:57] EJ Wise: As
[00:24:57] Marco Ciappelli: long as it makes it clear.
[00:24:59] EJ Wise: That's right. Or maybe open it up to the public. To, I think the way it went down a bit downhill is certainly in this state was 'cause it was just always one particular bank. Um, and, and you know, a child will get a fondness for that, the comfort of that brand.
But I'm fine if you, whatever tech company, call it Apple if you like, you do give, yeah, I'm thinking discounts. I'm thinking Apple. If Apple wants to come in at elementary school and teach my child. Just how to put on filters, how to exclude people they don't know in some of the platforms, how to only use, for example, applications that are through the Apple platform.
[00:25:36] Sean Martin: Be my guest. How to use a VPN, how to turn off location. Yeah, the
[00:25:40] Marco Ciappelli: basic, the basic stuff that parents will not know and teacher in school probably wouldn't know. They, they
[00:25:46] EJ Wise: won't know. Unless you do some research.
[00:25:48] Marco Ciappelli: Civic lessons that now become two hours a week of technology lesson.
[00:25:53] EJ Wise: I, I, I would love to have a brain scientist on your podcast.
Can you, can you note this please? I want a brain scientist and a cyber psychologist. I want them in the chair with you two. I want to hear about how we, uh, addicts, that, that tray of cocaine I mentioned earlier. That we're throwing this into the arms of, you know, one year olds. Um, and you've seen it. You've been in public transit somewhere.
There's a tram in San Francisco. Um, where you're with all these other zombies. We're guilty of it ourselves. It's very addictive. Um, how are we helping each other with this? Let them learn from an early age.
[00:26:33] Marco Ciappelli: Well, this was a conversation that went on in a lot of places. I think it made people think. I think it was really, really cool.
And as I always say, we don't have answers most of the time, but if we make think, and, uh, and the listeners think. So, uh, I'm sure our listeners have more questions now than when we started. We did a
[00:26:53] Sean Martin: good
[00:26:53] EJ Wise: job. I'm happy if they stayed awake and didn't, like, pull off the road. Right? Yeah. Alright.
[00:26:58] Sean Martin: Overall, making decisions every moment of every day.
And hopefully this will trigger something as you make the next
[00:27:04] Marco Ciappelli: one. Yeah. Make you think. Well, stay tuned. There'll be more coming up for this last day here at Australia Cyber Conference. And, uh, thank you so much. so much. For stopping by.
[00:27:16] Sean Martin: I'm glad we so much. Very good. Nothing
[00:27:19] EJ Wise: like in real life.
[00:27:20] Sean Martin: Exactly. But you're going to come back on anyway.
I already have some other ideas. Oh, yes. Yes, please. Yeah, yeah. All right. Thanks, everybody.
[00:27:27] Marco Ciappelli: Take care, everybody. Bye.