Scott “Shagghie” Scheferman joins Music Evolves to explore the intersection of creativity, technology, and music, sharing how the hacker mindset fuels artistic expression. From modular synthesizers to AI-driven music tools, this conversation challenges how we define creativity and asks whether technology enhances or diminishes the human connection to sound.
Guest: Scott “Shagghie” Scheferman, Artist: Raw. Analogue Techno. | On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottscheferman/ | Bandcamp: https://highsage.bandcamp.com/
Host: Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast & Music Evolves Podcast | Website: https://www.seanmartin.com/
The latest episode of Music Evolves brings a fascinating discussion with Scott “Shagghie” Scheferman, a longtime cybersecurity professional and electronic music creator. Host Sean Martin sits down with Scheferman to explore the intersection of creativity, technology, and music—challenging the traditional definitions of hacking and how it applies to the artistic process.
The Hacker Mindset in Music
Scheferman, who has spent decades working in cybersecurity, explains how his approach to music is deeply influenced by the hacker mindset. Traditionally associated with computers and networks, hacking is about problem-solving, exploration, and pushing boundaries. For Scheferman, that same mentality extends to music—whether modifying effects pedals beyond their intended use, experimenting with modular synthesizers, or applying unconventional methods to sound creation.
This perspective reframes the way we think about creativity: hacking isn’t just breaking things—it’s about finding new ways to build. In music, that could mean repurposing technology, combining analog and digital tools, or embracing unexpected results to drive innovation.
The Role of Technology in Music Creation
A core theme of the conversation is how technology shapes the way music is created and experienced. From the early days of analog synthesizers to today’s AI-driven tools, technology has always played a role in expanding musical possibilities. Scheferman describes his studio setup, filled with modular synthesizers, custom effects pedals, and digital sequencing tools, as an evolving playground for sound experimentation.
One of the key takeaways is that while technology can enable creativity, it can also introduce constraints. Whether it’s the frustration of a technical failure or the overwhelming options provided by AI-driven music tools, technology isn’t just a tool—it’s a collaborator. Sometimes, the best results come from working within limitations or intentionally breaking the rules.
AI, Automation, and the Future of Music
The conversation also touches on artificial intelligence and its growing role in music composition. AI tools can generate melodies, suggest chord progressions, and even simulate human-like performances. But does AI-enhanced music lose something essential?
Scheferman shares his thoughts on where technology ends and artistry begins. While AI can assist in generating ideas or automating tedious processes, it doesn’t replace the human connection to music. He sees AI as a tool for acceleration rather than substitution—something that can help musicians explore new ideas but should not dictate creative choices.
This is particularly relevant when it comes to live performance and improvisation. A computer can generate perfect beats and sequences, but can it capture the spontaneous interplay between musicians, the imperfections that make a performance feel alive? That’s still an open question.
The Human Element in Sound
Beyond the technical aspects, Scheferman and Martin discuss the emotional power of music. Whether it’s an acoustic guitar, an electrified soundscape, or a fully synthesized production, music has the ability to transport listeners to different states of mind.
They reflect on how people connect with sound—how live performances create an irreplaceable energy, how vinyl records provide a tactile experience that digital streaming lacks, and how technology might change the way future generations perceive and create music. The question remains: as digital tools become more dominant, will we continue to crave raw, unprocessed sound?
A Collaboration of Sound and Emotion
As the episode wraps up, Scheferman shares a track he created with his wife, Kati Rockit, blending electronic production with rock-influenced vocals. Their collaboration highlights another key theme of the episode—music as dialogue. Whether between humans and technology or between two creative partners, the best results often come from interplay, not isolation.
This episode of Music Evolves is a must-listen for anyone interested in how technology and creativity intersect. It challenges assumptions about what it means to be a musician in the digital age and invites listeners to rethink how they interact with sound.
🎧 Listen to the full conversation to hear more about hacking music, pushing creative boundaries, and the future of AI-driven sound.
Are you interested in sponsoring this show or placing an ad in the podcast?
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Katy Rokit - Forgotten Dance Mix (Techno meets Pop Electronica): https://katyrokit.bandcamp.com/track/the-forgotten-forgetaboutit-dance-mix
Highsage - Sloane vs. Aliens (my kid's voice vs. algo filtering, tape delays, drum machine and euro rack - live performance): https://highsage.bandcamp.com/track/sloane-vs-martians
"Open" - Just a man with his 303, 808 and some strings... - "like a breeze that opens the door with a funk that shuts the window" (live cut): https://highsage.bandcamp.com/track/open
More from Music Evolves: https://www.seanmartin.com/music-evolves-podcast
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[00:00:00] Sean Martin: Hello everybody, you're very welcome to a new music evolves episode. I'm your host Sean Martin. I hope you're uh, Hope you're ready for today And today is going to be amazing. I have good friend with me shaggy aka scott shepherdman. How are you, man? Good It's good to be here again. Good to see your face hear your voice.
It's good. Good to see and hear you too. And I I'd love What you create, you and your wife create as well. Um, and we've, we've had a lot of conversations over the years on technology and music and, and all kinds of stuff outside of the whole music world. But, um, anytime I get to chat with you about music, I get super pumped.
This is, uh, this is going to be fun. You, you, uh. You inspire me. I have too many toys now, gadgets, thanks to you. Cause I love what you do. And I love, I love being able to create not like you do, but create the way you do, or at least attempt to, and so we're going to talk a bit about that today. I think we'll probably talk a little about what, what is creativity?
Where does it, where does the human start, start and stop. Um, so we'll get into some of that fun stuff too, but, uh, and. And here's some things which I'm excited for as well. But, uh, for folks who are not fortunate enough to know who you are yet, a little bit about Shaggy.
[00:01:29] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Well, since the topic here is music and not specifically AI and certainly not cyber, we did, of course, probably at least 10, 12 years ago now.
It's been a minute, it's flown by. Uh, but yeah, I've been doing cyber for 30 years, so that's how I know a lot of your community, Sean, of course, historically, um, but then also all of our mutual friends like Chris Roberts and countless others that like to life hack or create or play jazz or make techno or whatever they, we do these weird things we do as kind of hacker personalities, so, um, I've been doing that for, for a while as well, kind of, for me, it kind of began as a club kid in the 90s trying to figure out how to make techno, uh, and that evolved into, um, Well, I guess I'm still trying to make techno some 30 years later, but yeah, that's my that's my genre is techno acid house Um, but I also do some electronic, we might hear a little bit later with my wife, which keeps the, uh, the marriage fresh and alive and fun,
[00:02:26] Sean Martin: super fun.
And,
uh, so we, we from based on our connection in a different industry outside of music, recognize the term hacker and that conjures up a certain view for us, maybe a different view for others in the industry, particularly in marketing and then in media, but then outside of. Technology and cyber security.
The word hacker, I think, may not resonate with folks or they may not. They may have a completely different picture, probably based on the media. And what I want to get your perspective, and I'm just going to say this quickly, is that I think you're using it interchangeably in the sense of. Creating. And we've had a conversation on this where I think, uh, you led me to, to a book by Herbie Hancock, where basically he's hacking the heck out of stuff, right?
To create music. And so his autobiography, um, I listened to on Audible. So I encourage people to check that out. But describe the term hacker for the music audience, what you mean there and how, how does that relate to creativity and creating stuff?
[00:03:42] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Well, you could take that convert that question so many different ways.
But to start it kind of like the middle altitude of just common sensory. Um, these days, obviously, Acker has all the connotations that I don't even need to explain to you because you've heard it so many times. It's in the news every day. Um, but back in the nineties when I began hacking even on computer hacking, let alone also music making, um, I was also into modding cars with my father.
He and I have been restoring, um, classic cars from the sixties, Italian cars, right? Then cloud Fiat's Alfa Romeo's. And, um, and, and my dad always associated himself. He was a Marine. He was associated himself as a hacker. And which just meant somebody who kind of thought outside the box and was kind of like OCD obsessive about, let's say repairing, um, a dual Weber carb set up on a on a on a VW bug or a Fiat, right?
Like, and the nuance and the esoterica and the. Kind of intention of focusing your mind in a, in a space and time where you're just trying to either break something so that you can make something go faster, or you're trying to fix something that is broken, and you still have to apply the same hacking methodology to either one of those problems.
At the end of the day, all hacking is, is, is truly just a, a mindset and a, an equal amount of appreciation for that mindset of being in a moment, be willing to go until you hit a wall that you know you will hit indeed. And figuring out how to get around that wall through either persistence or creativity or a combination of both until you get to some next wall and you don't even always know that there is a.
Diamond at the end, some reward that you might find or that you, you, that is, that you deserve the, the actual pursuit is its reward and that there, I think if I had to put a, you know, a hammer on it would, that is, that is, that is hacking, like realizing that it's a process that it's, it is its own reward.
regardless of what destination you, you've chosen to pursue music, computers, cars, whatever it is.
[00:06:00] Sean Martin: No, I'm going to, I'm going to bring up this story. Um, cause there was a moment where I was like trying to figure out some things in life. And, and you know, Marco, my co founder, he said, here, take, take my guitar.
It gives me great peace. When I play it and I thought, sure, I've, I've kind of messed around with the guitar a little bit here and there. Uh, never really stuck with it. Um, I took it and it did the quite, quite the opposite. It gave me angst because I wasn't, I wasn't prepared to hack it. I wasn't prepared to go on that journey.
Um, fast forward a few months later, I get another guitar, not his, um, I get another one and for some reason I was in the right headspace to. Just attack this thing and I could feel it, I could experience it, I could see that the journey of that process was rewarding and fulfilling and I started to hack learning the guitar.
I'm not great. Um, you won't be seeing me playing on music evolves anytime soon, perhaps one day, but the point is that it wasn't until my mind was ready to take that journey, that I was able to take that journey and experience what I was hoping to experience with a guitar.
And I think of it, I'm just quickly another story because I'm hoping these two things will trigger all thoughts for you. Just the, um, the process of, because we're going to talk tech here as well, that the process of making music. So there's picking up an acoustic guitar. Slightly different than plugging one into an amp or in some pedals and maybe manipulating those and not knowing how they work to full on recording vocals and multi tracks of music across different instruments and leveling and producing and, and understanding all of that technology.
And I can see where sometimes, uh, hitting a wall with one piece of tech, getting in the way of the process. Breaking down a creativity process, right? If you're stopping to fix a plugin and pro tools and you're in the middle of recording an audio A vocal track your whole experience your journey of creating that vocal is this So let's I don't know.
I'll just leave it there your thoughts on those those two stories
[00:08:45] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: You know, you mentioned a guitar versus plugging an electric guitar into an amp. And that, that is such a great, easily able, everybody can relate to that difference. Um, I, I go down crazy rabbit holes with modular synthesizers, applying logic and subtractive synthesis and other types of synthesis to like some crazy wormhole.
And that might give me joy, but it's very low odds that it will actually make music that anybody else would want to hear ever. Right. And conversely, You can go down the streets of New York or London and you have somebody sitting there with some pots and pans and some trash cans turned upside down and they're literally making the best techno you've ever heard in your life, um, and, and just with, with their hands and, and, you know, utensils.
So it's, it, music is, is interesting. I have always thought that the reason why we like music and making music is because it brings us back to some early form of ourself, maybe thousands or millions of years ago, where we were just in nature and nature has its own cadence, its own rhythms. of streams and wind and branches squeaking and banging against each other and animals singing like melody and echoes through caves that are, make us draw in because there's a reverb, you know, that reverb pedal you put on your guitar that plugs into your amp, that reverb puts you in a space that's physical, that's different than the one you're actually standing in.
Right, so reverb is very powerful because it puts you in an ambience, so I was like, music brings you back to some form of roots of just even just being a critter here on earth, you know, and I think that's why we like it. And then when you hack at music, it puts you both in the kind of the soundscape of your roots, but also the mindscape of your roots where you're You're, you're, you know, if you're, I don't want to use a dumb example, but if you're trying to figure out how to make fire and you, you know, you're a caveman, let's say, like a stereotypical one trying to, with a flint and a rock, right, trying to make fire, like, you're working, you're hacking that problem, you're figuring out how to farm, you're figuring out just life in it, but at its core, at its most simple kind of hands on, tactile way, and that's like when you work on a car and you wrench, It's the same thing, you're using your hands, just like you would bend branches back then, you know?
Art with a paintbrush, you're, you know, you've got moisture and, and color, and color does things to you that it used to do to us back in nature before there was society and, and an industrial revolution. So I, I feel like that's, that's really why hacking at Eve itself is so beautiful, it's because it brings you back to your stasis.
And gets you out of your, your thought process of this, this busy life, especially now we, you know, we don't even need to talk about it. It's almost a meme to talk about how overloaded we are with information, overload and distraction and attention, uh, economy disorders.
[00:11:41] Sean Martin: That's a whole nother topic of discussion for sure.
[00:11:43] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Yes. Let's not even go there. It's almost boring.
[00:11:46] Sean Martin: I think your point of. Turning to music, and maybe the listeners can relate to this as well. Um, even if they're not creating music, consuming music can often take us to places. And, I don't know for you, but some, when I'm creating something, to your point, the stuff I make will never see the light of day.
It's just for me, nobody probably wants to hear it. They certainly don't want to hear me sing. Um, even if I do put those tracks down, but, but I consume them and they bring me to a place. Um, and I consume a ton of other music. Um, we just did a podcast before joining you talking about vinyl and the resurgence of vinyl and comparison into streaming and, and the gentleman who, who's running the conference making vinyl was saying that there is a place for streaming for, and he pointed to discovery.
[00:12:39] "Shagghie" Music: Yeah.
[00:12:40] Sean Martin: And, um, I use the heck out of. That for discovery. Um, so I think there's, there's creating consume, but did both, I think, take us to different places. I want to, I did a poll. I didn't intend to connect it to this conversation, but I did a poll on LinkedIn. And I did, I redid it on threads to see if I get a different response.
But I asked folks from a live music. Perspective. Do you prefer acoustic, kind of the pure and unplugged versus a raw and amplified, um, versus an enhanced experience with effects and pedals and what about, uh, digital tracks and backing tracks to kind of bring a fuller sound? Acoustic, far and out one, um, pedals and effects got zero, which, which struck me because I don't know, Well, certainly any rock band, you're, you're going to have pedals and effects.
So maybe, maybe it's a specific style. Um, but I, I go back to my NAMM experience, uh, in LA and there are thousands of pedals. So it's interesting that it seemed like a disconnect here, but I guess where I'm going to is what, what we use to create. Maybe people don't realize that they're listening to effects and pedals, even if they don't see effects and pedals.
I don't know your thoughts on that.
[00:14:06] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Well, I mean, I, I, I made techno and I, you know, techno is nothing less and nothing more than totally abusing effects pedals to do things that the designer had no idea that you'd end up doing. Um, and, uh, and, and just getting crazy, just experimental, I don't know, um, minds.
Pardon my French, right? Like it's just out there kind of, you know, it puts you out there. And this is obviously a lot of the stuff came out of the late fifties, certainly through the sixties and definitely into the early seventies. Um, you know, in that, that era was even for synthesis and drum machines was so experimental.
Everything you heard felt like you were hearing something for the first time in human existence. Um, you know, my dad still describes in the Philippines in the sixties, when he turned on a stereo radio. And his brain couldn't figure out that there were different parts on pan left versus right. And he literally didn't know how to process that experience for the first time in his life.
So effects are nothing more than like trying to take the mind and tickle it into a place perhaps it hasn't been. Or they're trying to put the instrument into a space. I mean Anyway, not to get musically technical and preach to the choir literally here.
[00:15:14] Sean Martin: Um, I want to get technical, but let me ask you this.
Do you think that, do you think that good music brings us to a place or captures us in a way we were not focused on how or why it was done a certain way? So we, we hear the effects and pedals and, or, or as a sign of good music, we're going to make you realize that we're, we're panning left and right. We want you to twig and tweak or is it, is there an answer there?
[00:15:49] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Yeah, I feel like the more, and when you're discussing music or hacking, you ask either or questions. The answer is always going to be, it's great in context. Just like our cyber conversations. But, um, um, yeah, I mean, uh, you know, my wife does canvas art. That's one of hers behind me. I don't know if you can see that, but it's, you know, part of hers.
Um, and I go to these art shows all the time and I talked to artists and lately I've been looking on the walls and I'll see a piece that the compositionally. I hate to say this, it's almost blasphemy to say this, but I know that I know they did not construct the composition of that themselves, and that it was AI that they then used to build on top of and apply Um, you know, paint or or media to it and and interpret it in a certain way that is definitely art and artistic as hell, but I know that that let's say the the composition of the painting or so you just you it's it's it's like this with with everything in music.
It's um. It's content that there are those like there are people that are diehard fans of mine that that I don't know why they listen They listen to my music more than I ever will Uh and more than anybody health, you know should that's that's healthy and they just love that They're hearing something that they associate with when they're making almost all those people are musicians themselves They're not like people that go rave Because my techno is not big room techno.
It's it's more organic 90s Analog style, you know, manually produced techno. Um, so you can't even hear that in the clubs today because it doesn't even translate in terms of like the The the finish and the polish and the production that's put atop it, right? So everything even AI affects all that Oh my god, this conversation can go a thousand ways right now.
Um Where would you like to take this? Starting to get warmed up.
[00:17:34] Sean Martin: I'm gonna pause you though because I because you talked about uh, jacking up pedals Yeah Making them do what the manufacturer never thought they should do I think that's what, uh, you described with Herbie Hancock and he describes in his book what he did with the keyboards and the synthesizers and whatnot.
What does that mean? Hacking a pedal, messing with it, making it do when it's not supposed to do. Are you opening it up, doing it with wires or? Yeah, no, that's great. Or what are you doing?
[00:18:03] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: So open up that file that's, uh, image 2559. Not that we labeled these into human happy, yeah, okay. So that's my desk right over there.
It's about 20 feet away. I'm in my music studio right now. Um, and I, most people will look at that and say, blah, WTF. I see some pretty colors over there in the right. I see a mixer coming. I recognize it as a mixer, but I really don't know what that modular Eurorack thing is and that Russian tube amp thing on the far right.
That is actually a 303 synthesizer made with backing tube circuits instead of analog circuits. Um, it is. These are things people didn't know. And what you also, it's hard to make out unless you're kind of zooming, I suppose. But, um, there are a ton of pedals. They're kind of in the middle in that dark area between the left and the right.
And those pedals, some of them are so, you know, a guitar pedal, the reverb, distortion, you know, um, delays, these are basic effects, but I really have seen lately, I would say in the last 10 years, certainly the last five or six. Where the pedal manufacturers are themselves saying no, I'm not going to make another reverb pedal.
I'm going to make a reverb pedal that's got two AI algorithms that will pan left and right and then use phase cancellation to create a negative vacuum space with reverb around it so that your, your, your Panosphere, if you will, is artificially modified in a way that makes you disoriented. Now maybe you run a drum machine through that or a voice or a 303 synthesizer.
Um, it's just like the pedal manufacturers, Sean, are just gone so far off the deep end. They're almost crazier than some of the modules that I, I play with with Eurorack, right? Like, they're super, and they also have more than sound processing, and they're, they adopted the, kind of, the subtractive synthesis Eurorack meta, if you will, and they've added a lot of what you call logic.
So if then statements or if this and this, then also that will happen. Um, and if as that happens, it will route it through a different analog circuit and then recombine it through a mixer, and then you'll get the effect. Right. So you have like timing logic that's beat or percussive based, if you will, or divisible by the original accent.
Um, you have envelopes, which is the shape of the sound. That are algorithmically modified on, on, on the beats of a delay. So before you have an analog delay, which is like, bam, like a tape delay, but now you have bam, all those kinds of things are going on. And usually it sounds like ass, quite frankly, most of this algorithmic stuff has sounded so bad for the last 10 years.
I'm actually excited that the AI is getting. So efficient and reduced algorithmically that, um, it's starting to sound good. Finally, like, you know what I mean? There's this period of time where it's just sounded really bad. Um, yeah,
[00:21:04] Sean Martin: I think we have, I guess, fitting basically software, right? Software on, on the pedals and it's maybe it's more like a bios cause you're not updating it necessarily.
Right. So once it's there, I know I have seen pedals where you software, you control them with your phone. Right. So clearly there's software running. That's a remote access. Um, I don't know. Maybe let's talk about that. Cause you started with analog. They have some algorithms on them. Are you messing with the, the algorithms?
Are you, are you messing with the heart? You are. Okay. Tell it, tell me about that.
[00:21:43] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Right. So if you, let's see. Um, open up but don't quite yet play the, uh, joined video A1C92. Alright. Sorry to the audience.
[00:21:52] Sean Martin: Everybody's going to bear with me because I think it's going to play when I open it, but I'll pause it.
[00:21:56] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Yeah, there should be a pause button there.
[00:21:58] Sean Martin: Everybody just bear.
[00:22:02] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Alright. So, what, what you'll see here, what you do see here and what you'll hear is this is, this is a setup I had for a live show I did downtown Houston at an art studio where people were dancing. Mostly techno artists and DJs. And I went on and did a live euro rack set, which is kind of. Um, either it's going to be very interesting or it just sounds so bad you want to just puke your guts out and just run away.
Um, and I'll be honest, my performance was somewhere between the two. Um, but in prepping for that, I took this video and I just grabbed something, Sean, right before the show. I just happened to remember this moment, so I grabbed it. It's not like my best work or anything representative of my music, but when you're creating music using a combination of analog circuits, digital circuits, and synthesis, Um, um, sequencers, which are a logic that ties all of that together to some form of a clock.
So you have rhythmical symmetry throughout your composition. And then you have the, the, the algorithms that affect either those FX we're talking about, or they affect the logic. Um, so that you get, um, um, all sorts of different If then type of, of scenarios and when you play this, you know, obviously this was not done thinking about this conversation that would happen, you know, some five years later.
I think this how old this video is, but but when you hear it, you'll hear I'm just listening and doing a few things where my mind kind of goes. I'm not trying to make a track, but you'll hear a few things. I think I do where you hear the algorithm just shifted a little bit. Okay. And that, that is a, you'll hear the sonic representation of this concept.
So go ahead and play it. I'll talk over it if I need to.
I don't know if people will hear you, so I'll give you a thumbs up if I can hear you talking over it. But let's have, let's have a listen and a watch here. Can
Yeah, you can't hear me or you can? I can now, I've turned it down. Okay. So that's a sequencer, that black thing with the red dots. That's a logical sequencer sending electrical impulses to all these other modules that are creating the beats, creating the parts of the drum beat, this or that. And this is me creatively finding my way through what is the environment I have here.
And from this, once I find my way into a beat that is holistically attractive to my ears, I'll then subtract all those parts one at a time to get down to the essence and build it up and then build it back down and then that's techno. I mean, that's already your three minute track, right? Um, the creative process might take an hour, a day, a half hour, two days, three weeks.
You might have a patch that's going before you find your way into both your own personal space where you have time and mental space that you're talking about. Or, or you have like the groove that you actually care about enough to turn into a finished track, right? Because that's a commitment as an artist.
But, in that video there's um, Nearly, I would say 80 percent of those modules do have firmware that can be updated and needs to be updated and another whatever 15 percent would be pure analog circuitry. That is, we call it burned in circuitry. It is what it is, and I think that that is kind of to answer your question.
The reason I like this. Your rack stuff is because How do I put this? When we start to, you know, in my mind, I've been talking about, thinking about AI in this, in this very specific context, which is that when I look at that desk with all those pedals and all those cables. I'm pretty confident in my own ego as an artist and as a human being that there's no AI on earth that will ever be able to create that sound at that moment.
That kind of combined esoteric collusion of sounds, right, orchestra. But the truth is, but the truth is AI very much can do that to the extent. Uh, an author focuses on that problem, creates a data set, models all of that, and prepares it as an environment that I could interact with to recreate, to get somewhere there.
And I, but I, so my confidence is really not that AI can't do it. It's that no human is going to hire A. I. to get there and spend the money of, of, of deconstructing all that, right? I want to bring it up again.
[00:26:59] Sean Martin: Hopefully, I'm going to pause it, but I just want to, I want to look at it again, um, for a couple of reasons.
One, one on the A. I. point, but just. All those cables. I mean, I, I have a few, few gadgets, nothing looks like this. I just have a few things that I plug in. Um, and I know, I know where sounds coming in, where it's going out and where I look at it and tweak it. I don't. I don't have all these cables and all that kind of thing.
So people looking at this, maybe describe how, how do you know what goes in, what goes out from which thing to the next? Is it trial and error over time? Um, will it not work if it, if it's not set up the right way, quote unquote, the right way? Or do you not set it up the right way? So you get different, different things from it that you want to get?
[00:27:58] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: I don't know. That's beautiful. Uh, the way you phrase that, especially towards the end there, Sean, is so on point. So. There are rules to follow to reach certain outcomes that a normal human or musician would relate to and care about. There are many rules that you want to learn so that you kind of know where you, how to get to where you want to go creatively and compositionally and physics wise.
All of this is just physics. And the two, the two primary worlds of physics that you're looking at here are sound, Vibrations, electrical, you know, energy, and then logic and logic can either exist in the digital realm, as you see in the foreground there, that black device with the 1. 06, that is an all digitally logic piece of computation.
It's a sequencer, but once it comes to an output, it outputs a single electrical pulse, a tick goes across the wires as a trigger. And that trigger will tell one of these other modules adjacent to it, right, will tell it to do a damn thing. And what that damn thing is depends on the design and intent of the module, but also the user's connection of that module, um, as an independent module and its configuration or its connection to all the other modules.
And so the more wires you see, the more entropy and chance you have for both happy accidents as well as sonic mayhem and annoying, annoying sound like you can, you can easily, if you don't know what you're doing and you walked up there and told your kid to turn knobs, it's going to turn into a train wreck really fast, right?
A tunnels. Algorithms that are not aligned to the same clocks. I mean, it's just, it's just shit. So to keep it on track and keep it interesting and keep it simple enough to still be called musical. is a total mental balance game. Um, I mean, these are some of my favorites.
[00:30:00] Sean Martin: This is where I wanted to take you.
Yeah. Because you, this is the, the many times many computational, I mean, you, you add one more cable in it, it's a completely different thing perhaps, or one more pedal, or one more whatever, change the tune, tempo. You, Scott Shaggy designed this and you know, all the, not all of them, you know, the, the permutations that you want to hear by trial and error or by design.
So I go back to the, to the AI thing where, what, what would it sample? It's going to sample all the crap too. Not just what you have spent years working to find as a range or a space or the peripheral or outside the boundaries work for you. right? And so I don't know.
[00:30:56] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Okay. So there's a question there. I already know what it is, and I love it.
So, um, the one interesting thing is about this euro rack scene, euro, like Europe rack one word euro rack. One thing that's interesting is that it's really hard to, if like you're saying, I'm going to get into Eurocrack, Euro rack, we call it Eurocrack, because once you buy one module, you buy another, it's power pedals.
Um, but once you get into Eurocrack, you want to create your first, what we call a case, which is like, you know, some physical thing that holds these things that you can arrange them and power them up behind there. There's a power board and all that, right? In so doing, you really don't know what you don't know, but you kind of want to hear how it might sound.
So there is software that takes the logic and the synthesis even of a lot of these modules and creates a software version of this module and a makeshift virtual case, and you can interconnect them and kind of hear how two modules kind of interplay. And, but the reason I mention that is because Would it be interesting to apply AI to that software so they can stay in a digital realm and have perfect control where you don't need to analog manipulate these wires?
Um, right. I think that that would be very interesting what AI might do there. Uh, and largely to do with the, the, the data, the training set it, it trains on, but like, I could literally go through this photo until you walk through each module and every knob and every port and hole ultimately goes back to something you could buy at a guitar center for your, for your guitar, for your electric guitar.
I mean, everything in there is almost a guitar pedal at this, at this point. Um, and it's, it's just about, Eurorack tries to condense that to give you a lot of power in a small amount of space. And then you take that thing on the road and you have, in the 60s, this synthesis, synthesizer here would take up probably six rooms.
I mean, just not, not what's in the photo there, but I know the rest of that case and it goes in front of you as well. And that, that setup is probably about six rooms worth of circuitry and logic, um, that you'd have to orchestrate, uh, in the 60s. Right? So. Were you on,
[00:33:07] Sean Martin: I think you were on with, uh, we had Seth on with you, didn't we?
Seth Cluet.
[00:33:12] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: I remember that. That was, uh, that was interesting conversation. Yeah,
[00:33:15] Sean Martin: I'm, uh, I'm actually going to be meeting with him as well. And I'm fingers crossed going to get a view into some of the Nokia lab stuff, which I'm expecting to see kind of what you just described as a giant room with
[00:33:33] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: I mean, that's what you just summed up my life. I used to hack, uh, as a network hacker in the 90s. I had a server room in my garage where I would hack. And eventually I got tired of hacking computers and software, and I started hacking music. And I found like, and I've shared this with you, but for your audience, that it's a much more meaningful, deeper, more difficult, More challenging, more subjective, painful, from like a blues soul kind of artist perspective.
You know, hackers go through their own kind of pain through persistence and rejection and fear and insecurities and like, and so do musicians. And so I feel like when you're hacking music, it puts you into more soul enriching hacking mind states where you kind of Find yourself through the experience better than when I was hacking as I could be, and I'm sure that's different for absolutely every human on earth as it should be, but for me personally, I can't go back after trying to hack through what I'll loosely call sound and logic and the nexus of those two things that we might call music, you know,
[00:34:41] Sean Martin: I'm going to talk about that because you said most of the questions when we start talking about a not AI and I'll, I'll expand it to not just AI, but technology in general, some people who hear what, see what you have there and hear what you create might have an opinion based on what I'm about to say and ask here.
Um, cause. Yeah. Consuming, right? Does somebody like music generated by AI? Does somebody like art that was generated or influenced or started with AI that then was augmented with human stuff? That's always going to be up to the receiver, the person consuming. So I'm not going to put you on the spot because it'll always be in it.
It depends. You personally, where, where does technology, obviously there's a lot of tech there. So you like hacking the tech. Where does technology stop? And it turns to Scott and you say, I'm not going to cross over. Or is there a line you won't cross over that says, I will always use my brain and my hands and my ears for this period?
Has that changed over time? Do you see it changing in the future? I have my own personal thing I'll share if you want to hear, but, um, after you. Okay.
[00:36:02] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Well, uh, such a beautiful unloaded question, but, um, it has changed. Since LLMs came out, uh, in AI in that regard has actually literally fundamentally changed my view of this, um, historical dichotomy, like every guitarist, every drummer, for example, has a bumper sticker that hates drum machines, like going back to the 80s and 90s.
They thought the drum machine would, right, like, remove the drummer. Um, and to some extent, there are really good bands like Berlin that came out with drum machine music, and we were just like, oh my god, drum machines are dope!
[00:36:37] Sean Martin: So let me, let me make a point here, because I pointed to myself. Electronic drums I hate.
Yes, drum machine. I love I adore drum machine.
[00:36:46] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Okay. Well, so yeah, the drum like the pads with the samples and you're hitting those and it's not acoustic. Yeah. Okay. So this is the economy in synthesis as well. There's always been a overriding belief that analog synthesis, the analog domain of using actual analog circuits, uh, has an infinite Okay.
more sonic, um, soundscape potential than the digital realm. And through the 80s and 90s and 2000s, uh, the aliasing you would hear in everything from using Ableton Live on, for, you know, a digital audio workstation, to a digital pedal from Behringer, or, you know, Boss. What you would argue over it, you would have philosophical, you know, pot smoking, beer drinking, you know, conversations about like analog versus digital.
And that was always this thing. And I always kind of, as an analog artist, I was personally biased, right? I did have strong opinions. That the analog was superior in certain ways that humans wanted to relate to that drew them in instead of push them away. And, uh, you know, the conversations went on for nights and more than we have time for here.
But where I've gone lately, just kind of fast forward is I don't now currently, as I stand here, put any particular limits on myself and the inspiration for that. In either domain or combination of the domains, because the LLM, the interaction with LLMs that I've had over the last four months specifically versus the last two years has really fundamentally altered my view of what is intelligence.
I no longer look at it as a human versus the, you know, Artificial intelligence and the differences, the two much like, um, my view to solve racism was always to focus on the things that we have in common versus the differences that set us apart. And that's how that's the mechanism overcoming. I've also looked at intelligence this way.
We're like intelligence is about, uh, something more than human humanity or humans as a life form and more than machines and logic. And, uh, and, and, and what we call AI. It's literally something that is its own thing, right? It deserves its own caveat as a, as an entity, intelligence. And intelligence is really, for me, only now measurable by speed.
Velocity towards an outcome, right? And our human minds are actually very slow. We run at like 10 megabyte, megabytes per second clock compared to AI, which is Insanely fast, let alone quantum around the corner or literally here already. So it's, it's, I stepped back and like, when it comes to music, man, nothing, it's almost opened my mind to a new possibility.
You do need some rules in music as a musician. Not as philosophically, but as a musician, you need some kind of box to paint yourself in so that you're doing a damn thing, right? You have, because like you said, to a canvas with a paintbrush and a palette, you have to have some kind of intention. You can't just say, I'm gonna go paint today.
You can, but it's not going to end up being very interesting to you. The experience might be whatever. Maybe you get some kinesthetic grit out or anger out, but the paint is not going to look very beautiful. So you have to have a box or intention, and then you have to give yourself permission to break those rules in that box to the extent it brings you joy.
And, and you have, uh, killed your ego enough to allow yourself to pivot when you hear the happy accident. Right? Because I start with this intention. It's a 9 0 9, and music, 9 0 9 kick and a high hat and a bass line that goes like this in my head when I'm taking a shower. I run to the studio to recreate that moment.
By the time I'm done, I can't remember the original thing. I'm on to something totally different. But I, I honored the fact that where I found myself was better than where I started with my intention. And I'm okay with that deviation. And this is how I approach now this analog versus digital thing we're talking about.
I don't care. I'll go full digital. If it suits me in the moment towards an original intention, that is attached to an inspiration. You have to have equal parts inspiration and intention. You can't go in without inspiration. That's futile and it makes you sad. Right? So I try not to rush art or force art.
Right? When I'm trying to get better at my art but I'm not inspired, that's when I'll pick up AI and study. music making as an academic thing, so I can make myself smarter, but I don't have to worry about being a productive musician.
[00:41:38] Sean Martin: Well, you said joy and at the end of the last thing you mentioned, and to me it's, it's, uh, that plays a huge thing because you said the opposite of, if you don't have the inspiration, don't have the box you're attacking, uh, it may not be joyful.
Everybody has their own thing. Maybe, maybe pain is joyful for some folks or angst and discomfort.
But
yeah, so I, I know I completely, completely hear you and yeah, just like very quick view on that is that I guess I look, look to things for inspiration and perhaps other work technology, AI might give me that inspiration to your point.
Um, I don't set out to say I want to. Do something. I need the inspiration. Give it to me. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't go to for like, I don't know, lyrics come to my head. Um, I won't go to AI and finish them or refine them. I figured that they're going to come as they come. And that's, that's what I want out of it.
That it might be a little challenging. But that's the box, right? And as I bump up against the edges, I'm
[00:43:06] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: looking for you is your box there on purpose, because you want to reserve a part of your ego and authority and your agency over your art? Or is it there because you're just honoring an artistic process that you enjoy?
By excluding turning to AI to, let's say, finish your lyrics, right, to use your example, right, is it, is it, is it, um, what's, there's a word for it, is it, um, a matter of principle for you, or is it a creative choice?
[00:43:40] Sean Martin: Principle is the right word, I think, and
yeah, I think, for me, it's, it's that journey. And if I'm, if I'm giving part of the journey to something else, and I'm, I'm using AI in this example now on the drum machine, I'm giving that that part of the journey to a drum machine instead of sitting down with a bunch of mics at my drum kit, right? Partly because the drum kits a pain in the ass and the mic up and all that, and I can only get a certain sound out of it.
Whereas the drum, the drum machine, endless possibilities, right? Phil Collins. Oh, right. So, so sometimes, so in that sense, I, I leverage the technology to give me, and a lot of times, my inspiration comes from the beat, and then the melodies in my head. Um, I'm a drummer. So the beat, the beats, what gives me the inspiration and then kind of the rest of it builds around it.
And I definitely use that. I got a technology to do that. I guess I'm just, I don't know. Maybe I'm just not keen on AI. I don't know for maybe, maybe it's the lyrics. I don't know. I wouldn't turn to AI to write music. Um, it sounds like you've. You've been doing a bit of that as well.
[00:45:00] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Well, so I have a 10 year old daughter and she's a singer songwriter and performer She's been taking pro music lessons from a grammy award winning woman for six years now since she's a little kid She sang at the do si do.
She's amazing. Her music is beautiful And we played that she played at a wedding and made everybody cry in a good way Like she's phenomenal And when i'm trying to raise her I do use AI to, for what I would call sake of automation, you only have so much time in a day as a father, all fathers feel like they're failing their daughter or their child because they're not spending enough time.
That's quality. And so in that kind of panic. uh, regret you're trying to avoid, you might use AI to get yourself there faster. And that could be lyrics, but it could also be, um, um, composition. Uh, it can also be these tools now where you just plug in, give me a beat like Michael Jackson's, you know, beat it and a melody from Adele and push them together for me and let's hear something.
And AI will do that for you, but all of a sudden you've got a chord progression, you've got a bass line, you've got a drum kit going, it's all. Artificially produced, but you know what? If I give her that framework and I stripped the vocals and she comes up now with her own vocals and her own inflection and her own way of singing it and her own melody on top, let's say, um, I can then take the audio into my.
DAW deconstruct the parts using other AI software to kind of go backwards against the AI and part it out into MIDI files and then Now I'm turning analog knobs that are being triggered by a digital MIDI that was reversed from AI that was inspired by AI Which inspired by a ten year old and I'm okay with all of them Like, you know, I use the tool to get my daughter to where she needs to be So that she can sing on that stage.
And I don't care what tool it is, I will use it. You know what I mean? So it's like, that's kind of helped me change too as an artist. A lot of what I do now is like, like one of these files, or that website I sent you is just uh, Katy, my wife and I. And we made music together for a period of time. Probably like five, six years.
We even performed at TourCon live in San Diego at one of the hacking conferences, right? Uh, and it was live. It was crazy. He had a mic and I had all my table full of synthesizers. We performed the track that you, that I sent you and it's doing music with family is great. And I feel like AI could either threaten that and distract from it or be used creatively.
Like AI is dual use. It could be definitely be not necessarily used with intention to bring you down. But if you misuse your tool, You're gonna bring yourself down . You know what I mean?
[00:47:41] Sean Martin: Well, that's why it, it's, it's still a depends answer.
[00:47:45] "Shagghie" Music: Ah,
[00:47:45] Sean Martin: but I have Right. But, but I have, have my, my, my version of it.
And your version of it. And that's why I love hearing your story. I think you're the fact that we we're different places. I'm not performing, I'm not recording, I'm just messing around. So it's, it's easy.
[00:48:01] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: That's what I'm doing too. I'm not out there anymore,
[00:48:04] Sean Martin: but it's a moment for me to push boundaries on, on learning something new.
It feels good. I love holding the instruments, the feel of the instruments, actually pushing the buttons and turning the knobs and hearing the sounds come out. I'm not trying to, I'm not teaching a kid music, so I love your story about how you're using all the tools and technology to fast track certain areas of learning and, and inspire creativity and, and also present stuff that, that's complete as a, as a way again, that, that sets one, one boundary of the box, right?
When you present something that exists already, then you, one can start to start to move around it or leapfrog it or whatever.
[00:48:52] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Well. I mean, I think that AI is, sounds like a meme when you say the word AI these days, but um, but the, when it comes to music, right, to narrow it down, AI is, will forever now be a part of every musician's creative process, whether they like it, choose it, want it, or not.
And the reason for that is most licks that you get when you're taking a shower and you're washing your armpit and that bass line hits, or that beat, You've heard some version of that. And so I knew a guy for a while, one of our good friends, my dad, my, you know, my kid's grand godfather, if you will. He worked in LA for Jimmy Ivey and did big bands like, you know, Lady Gaga and One Republic.
So we were having dinner one night with One Republic and that main. Singer and uh band manager or band's name guy's name is ryan and at one point I don't know. This is probably like 12 years ago If you turned on a song on fm radio of the top 10 songs, he had written all 10 of them not 9 out of 10 Literally, he put a monopoly on songwriting for all, all artists that you would hear in the top 10, um, and he had a very specific set of formulas and approach, I guess, that allowed him to be that productive and not that lucrative and all that, and I think AI now has supplanted folks like that.
I hate saying this out loud, and I know I have a lot of, um, Friends in Hollywood that are equally upset about AI replacing them as actors or voiceover, you know for animations But the truth is that AI is so prevalent in the digital audio workstation That whether it's a sound like from mastering and mixing whether it's a guitar sound Whatever that thing is that you think somebody's a genius for creating.
There's a really good chance that these days You're not hearing somebody honor a happy accident on an analog guitar pedal fed into some weird amp in a corner in a cave. It's rather you, you heard somebody turn an AI knob a certain way and said, yeah, that, that's interesting. Like Billie, Billie Irish, I hear a lot of AI in her music.
That might sound like blasphemy to her fans. And I might be totally wrong too. But I can tell you my, the way I experience her music is very algorithmically. Um, the drum machines, the 808 samples that you all that stuff, the way it hits, I hear, uh, a very digital clock instead of an analog clock, like her drum machines are not analog.
And that's a subtle thing. Most people don't even care, but you hear it nonetheless. Like, whether your brain breaks it down in your conscious and understands it academically or not, the way you experience the digital versus analog drum sequencer or player, which is the original analog drum sequencer, right, is very different.
You know, the clock is, hits different. So,
[00:51:46] Sean Martin: yeah. Yeah. And that's a very philosophical point here. And maybe one of our first ever video episodes. You remember the unusual gatherings? I think we may have talked about this years and years ago. Just the idea of, of the world we're creating. And will we, will we want to hearken back to less technology, right?
Will we, will we yearn for the days of that real drum, real drum over the, though it's always going to be a place. I'm just, I'm, my point is, I think. Are we moving in a direction where the physical stuff goes and the digital starts to take over? And with it becomes what you just described in my opinion, a world of perfection.
[00:52:33] "Shagghie" Music: Yeah.
[00:52:33] Sean Martin: Where everything, everything is perfect and there's a common denominator, a common line.
[00:52:41] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Well, in the 90s, Sean, when the internet was at its dawn and I was raving, when you went to a techno rave with the lights and the experience and all that. You had this sense that the future was coming and techno and technology and the internet and hacking and all these.
Um, you know the cypher punks I used to hang out with we all felt like we were building this future thing and the allure of techno walking to that rave hearing that bass hit you with a With a drum sequencer instead of a drummer right like that beat that techno beat It brought you towards some beautiful future that you thought you were creating with your friends.
I think we're way past that now. And now we are very much missing We are lonely for Our analog biological selves, you know, are interplay as humans as well as as social beings. Um, and so I think that techno is, is almost when you hear like Detroit techno, it brings me back to like what my, I imagine my father hears when he hears Joni Mitchell play guitar, right?
From the 60s, right? So like, it's like, it brings them back in a sentimental way of walking into a warehouse. That's what gives me joy when I make a drum beat for the drum machine, right? Um, I, I think we're, if you think of a movie where you have like zombies, it's post apocalyptics and somebody walks into like, uh, a beat up pawn shop and there's a guitar and they start playing it and, you know, people are dying all around, but you just got this moment where somebody strums a guitar.
And even in a movie, it just kind of draws you in like, Oh my God, what I would, what you would give for a guitar when the world is indeed ending, right? That kind of answers your question. I think we're always going to long for the past.
[00:54:33] Sean Martin: What's the, one of the famous scenes on the Titanic, right? The piano?
The band playing.
[00:54:39] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Oh, the band, oh yeah, the ship's going down and they're playing.
[00:54:43] Sean Martin: Um. I heard, uh, I went to listen to some music the other night and, uh, the drummer I saw, both drummers were amazing. He let, he let some guys sit in in the last, the last song. I thought this is going to be a disappointment compared to what I just saw.
He was amazing too. This drummer, I was like, how the hell is he doing that? Hands don't move that fast. You can't reach three drum heads in that frame of time. It's not possible. And it was quite something to experience. Over the top in some spots, and maybe a little too much in some spots. And not on beat.
In terms of a beat that you'd want to But impressive nonetheless, but they're purposeful, not mistakes, just purposely that way, but incredible, I guess, is the main point. And that was all a human. I was like, this was a treat to a treat to experience. Speaking of treat to to experience. Um, we're at the end here.
Um, I wanted to play that, that track you shared with me. Is that something we could do?
[00:55:59] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Yeah. Uh, just one thought on what you just described. I used to go to the Long Beach Jazz Festival a while back. Um, and Barbara Morrison was one of the singers that would tour there. I hope, hopefully she's still alive.
She was elderly even back then. Uh, one of the best just blues singers you ever heard just belt out. And she stepped up there and she had this, I'll never forget this drummer and this bassist. Just the three of them. And, you know, the bass player was just ahead of the drums, and everything was in the pocket, and, you know, she had that little kind of body English that just got the room poppin It's a kind of asymmetrical pop.
And, you know, those kind of moments when her voice inflection is literally fluttering off of the cymbals in a weird kind of way that she's not necessarily, she might very well, she's so trained, but like, you know, through voice inflections, but her style matched the drum and the bass. It's like That's how she sang.
And these are the kind of moments, especially in jazz and blues is where I was going that I think it'll be interesting to see what AI does in when asked to complete those moments as an objective when you interface with LM's and you ask them to be creative. They can get kind of funny and weird and dark and just all sorts of weird stuff, right?
But I think that when it comes to music in particular, I'm ultimately super curious about if they can pull off a Miles Davis moment. They'll train off a Miles Davis, so the answer might be yes. That's, that's the weird thing about it.
[00:57:38] Sean Martin: Anyway, yeah. Exactly.
[00:57:40] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: So this track is the one that we performed at Turcon a number of years ago, probably Turcon 3 or something in San Diego. Um, and, uh, it was the second and only time we ever performed live. The other time was when I proposed to Katy Rockit during a show. There you go.
[00:57:59] Sean Martin: Wow. Uh. How long is it?
Should I play it out?
[00:58:04] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: I don't, uh, play, you know, just go through like the first verse. Unfortunately, this one, I think the intro might be a little long, so you could either needle drop it or we'll talk over it, and then, uh, play through the verse and the chorus, and that's, you know, cut it off after the first chorus.
[00:58:16] Sean Martin: All right. Yeah, we'll, uh, let it go for a bit here and then, uh, wrap up.
[00:58:21] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Here we go. But this is her as a punk rock singer. Playing at the Belly Up in San Diego, me being a techno producer, trying to come up with a genre that we both didn't fight over. I produced all the music, she did all the lyrics and vocals.
[00:58:37] Sean Martin: Nice one. Katy Rockit, Escape, here we go.
[00:58:45] "Shagghie" Music: Sounds a bit crushed.
[00:58:48] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Is it? The resolution's a little low through here, that's fine. It's all good.
Some people think she sounds like Madonna when she sings, I don't know, I don't know for who.
[00:59:09] "Shagghie" Music: Do it again. I wake up each and every day. Hear my looking glass whisper my name. Tells me stop running, quit hiding my face. I can't keep living trapped in this.
[00:59:34] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: Yeah, so the course is pretty powerful.
[00:59:37] "Shagghie" Music: Yeah,
[00:59:42] Sean Martin: I presume we can, uh, we can share that with folks. That's fine. I'll, I'll let, we can, we can let people, uh, listen to the full track and, uh, enjoy Katy Rockit.
[00:59:52] "Shagghie" Music: Yeah, there you go.
[00:59:53] Sean Martin: I love, I love that beat. Her voice is amazing, too. And, uh, you're a good duo.
[00:59:59] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: I mean, it was fun, right?
Like, you just, music, I look at music these days, like, when you go to our studio, like, art is nothing less than a dialogue. So like, when you take an art just yourself, if you're all alone in the world, it's never going to be quite the same as having anybody next to you. It doesn't matter who they are, where they come from, what their education or appreciation is.
Just asking them the simplest question about what's in front of them, that you're looking at the same thing at the same time. Is a separate kind of joy that you get as an artist same with music, you know So I think that's why djs want to eventually produce like I want to make a track that Moves all those bodies and I want to hit the button right like, you know, that's what we all want So I think art is a dialogue whether it's music or uh, or canvas
[01:00:46] Sean Martin: exactly keep keep creating.
Uh, Keep enjoying or what do I say? Let let the music move you. That's probably from somebody else but uh Nonetheless, I think, uh, this is a conversation that moved me, my friend. It's always good to see you and chat with you, and you always make my mind spin with the way you think and the work that you do, and, and, uh, yeah, I love your music.
I love you, and I'm so glad you joined me for this episode, my friend.
[01:01:16] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: It's good to be back here at, uh, at this, at this show, just seeing your voice and hearing your feet. Hearing your voice, seeing your face, seeing the look at my canvas and my music transposed. But yeah, it's great. I hope to say hi to Marco at some point soon too, so that'd be great.
[01:01:31] Sean Martin: I'm keeping you away from him.
[01:01:35] Scott "Shagghie" Scheferman: For now.
[01:01:35] Sean Martin: No, Marco's good. He's uh, he's uh, enjoying storytelling on his show, Audio Signals, and uh Funny, funny enough, the name and audio signals, but it's about storytelling. But, uh, no, we, uh, we enjoy you, my friend. And, and thanks for this. Thanks for sharing your music. Thanks for sharing your setup.
Hopefully everybody enjoyed the conversation and, uh, looking at how technology connects with music and us as human beings. So Scott, thanks. Thanks so much, everybody. Thanks for joining, watching and listening. And, uh, do you stay tuned for more music evolves? We'll see you on the next one.