In this episode of the Redefining Society Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Bruce Y. Lee to explore the fascinating, and sometimes frightening, world of transhumanism and the ethical questions it raises.
Book: The Singularity Is Nearer: When We Merge with AI by Ray Kurzweil (Author) https://amzn.to/3Zk7CTa
Guest: Dr. Bruce Y Lee, Executive Director of PHICOR (Public Health Informatics, Computational, and Operations Research) [@PHICORteam]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-y-lee-68a6834/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/bruce_y_lee
Website | https://www.bruceylee.com/
On Forbes | https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/
On Psychology Today | https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/contributors/bruce-y-lee-md-mba
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Redefining Society Podcast. This episode also marks the return of the series "A Carbon, a Silicon, and a Cell Walk Into a Bar," wherein I'll be joined by my good friend and co-host, Dr. Bruce Y. Lee. Today, we're diving into a topic that perfectly aligns with the ethos of our series – transhumanism.
Setting the Stage
In our chat, Bruce and I discussed various facets of transhumanism, from its historical roots to the ethical dilemma it poses today. I opened the conversation by expressing how delighted I was to have Bruce, a man of many talents, join me. I emphasized his diverse background in journalism, medical expertise, and his strange affinity for avocados – a passion that I certainly share with him. We started by noting the sheer breadth of transhumanism – a term encompassing everything from genetic manipulation to uploading our brains to the cloud.
Human History Meets Future Potential
Bruce brought up a thought-provoking point about how humanity's journey with technology is not new. Even something as ancient as the wheel fundamentally altered what humans could accomplish. The act of inventing the wheel allowed humans to do things they couldn't do before, much like what transhumanist technologies promise today. However, Bruce and I quickly recognized that more complex technologies, like genetic manipulation and AI integration, bring forth a host of ethical and practical questions.
Confronting Ethical Questions
We moved on to discuss the ethical implications of transhumanism. Where does one draw the line between necessary medical interventions and unnecessary enhancements? For example, medical implants that help people with degenerative diseases are widely accepted. Yet, when technology is used to enhance human abilities – making one faster or smarter – the ethical waters become murkier.
Balance of Benefits and Risks
Bruce highlighted how society has historically handled similar ethical conundrums. One poignant example is performance-enhancing drugs in sports. Initially, these drugs were developed for legitimate medical use, yet athletes later adopted them to gain unfair advantages, skewing the level playing field. Bruce and I agreed that such parallels are worth pondering as we consider transhumanist technologies.
A Garlic-Inspired Reflection
Throughout our conversation, we found humor and caution in the metaphorical garlic Dr. Bruce brought along (as a background image) an amusing yet insightful reminder of the importance of asking questions. We concluded that while we should remain optimistic about technological advancements, it’s vital to ask intelligent questions and consider potential consequences before diving headfirst into uncharted waters. This garlic-induced paradigm should guide our approach to emerging technologies like AI and brain-computer interfaces.
Looking Forward
For future episodes, Bruce and I have a packed agenda. We'll tackle specific topics like healthcare inequality in the age of singularity, human augmentation, and even far-fetched ideas like uploading your brain to the cloud. Each of these topics offers a blend of promise and peril – perfect for a series dedicated to exploring how technology is both reshaping and being shaped by society.
Closing Thoughts
So, stay tuned, and don't forget to subscribe! We’ll cover these fascinating topics and much more in our upcoming episodes. And a special thanks to Bruce and the ever-vigilant garlic for reminding us to thoughtfully navigate the complex landscape of transhumanist technology.
See You Next Time
You'll find links to connect with Bruce and explore his incredible contributions in journalism and medicine. I promise you; he's just as insightful and entertaining as he seems in the series. So, see you next time – same bar, same garlic, new topics!
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Resources
The Singularity Is Nearer: When We Merge with AI (Book): https://amzn.to/3Zk7CTa
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To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcast
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Healthcare, Technology, Transhumanism, and a Garlic: A Deep Dive into the Future of Healthcare and Humanity | A Carbon, a Silicon, and a Cell walk into a bar... | A Redefining Society Podcast Series With Recurring Guest Dr. Bruce Y. Lee
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Redefining Society podcast, but it's actually a new episode of a carbon, a silicone, and a cell walk into a bar with my co host, guest, and you know, we kind of exchange role, I guess here, and, uh, and good friend, Bruce Y. Lee, Dr. Bruce Y. Lee. I know he likes avocados.
Thanks for tuning in. I know he's a journalist. I know he has a lot of medical expertise and he's involved in, uh, in a lot of things when we come to healthcare and technology. And that's, as you can guess from the name of the show, or the series, we're talking about human, we're talking about technology, computing, and we're talking about technology.
Medicine. So welcome back, Bruce. So good to see you. You and the garlic in the back of your
[00:00:52] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yes, I figure, you know, we have a carbon, I have a silicon, might as well invite it a garlic, a single garlic. Um, although you can see the garlic is a bit confused, turned, because we're going to be talking about a very interesting topic today, right?
Transhumanism.
[00:01:09] Marco Ciappelli: Oh yeah.
[00:01:09] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Um, and so I think, uh, this look on the garlic is Um, a little anxious, um, but you know, there's, there are myths and there are, there are realities that we're going to talk about, I guess.
[00:01:27] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. I mean, look that, I don't know. I mean, people watching the show, of course, on YouTube can see the, the very concerning garlic in the back.
Yeah. The people listening. Yeah. It's, it's the face that I had. Pretty much the old time listening to The Singularity is Nearer, the updated version of The Singularity is Nearer from Ray Kurzweil. And it's, uh, yeah, it, it's, it's happening, apparently, according to him and according to a lot of news that we see around.
And, uh, yeah, that's the face of, wow, that's cool. Uh, wow, that's weird. That's I think that summarized the way I felt about it and we'll have to pick some topics because there is too much so it will be kind of like an ongoing conversation about the transhumanism thing.
[00:02:16] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: I should that I should add that garlic can be very good for you.
Um, But, uh, you know, in moderation, you don't want to eat a ton of garlic right before a date, but no.
[00:02:28] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Uh, on the other hand, you may want to have a bunch of garlic around your neck if you're going to Transylvania. Yes. And you know, and you want to keep vampires.
[00:02:39] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah, or if your date might be a vampire.
[00:02:43] Marco Ciappelli: You never know, you never know. All right. Well, so, um, I guess, I don't know. I know you're like me. I know that you You you spend your time thinking about what many people may consider some Weird thoughts and say, why are you worried about this thing? Or why do you care about this thing? And, and, and when you dive into these and you start connecting the dots, I think, uh, it's, it's a good thing to do because we don't want to find ourself with technology, Reaching its full potential and then realizing that, oh shit, I should have thought about that before.
So I think people like me, you and many, many, many other out there are considering guardrails and ethical, um, ethical thoughts and, uh, and again, guardrail. I think the, the guardrail, we're not gonna stop technology, but we may be able to control it to where it's going. So your your first thought on, on the old concept of.
Transhumanism. And maybe we've given a little explanation about what, what it is.
[00:03:49] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah. Maybe we should define it for the garlic back here because, you know, maybe the garlic is used, uh, you know, you can never tell what garlic, um, garlic may be confused because, uh, garlic is confused about the specific topic or maybe it's even confused what it means.
So, yeah. So, you know, we talked about transhumanism, you know, it's the idea that technology can enhance what humans can do, uh, even, you know, Even to the point where like, you know, people, you make superhumans or humans that, that have capabilities that they didn't have previously. Now it's, it's an interesting topic because, you know, one could argue that the wheel, when the wheel was, That, that allows humans to do things which they didn't do before.
So, um, so it is kind of an open space, but you know, I know, Margo, you mentioned, you know, about technology and I think we've talked about this before. Technology in itself is neither good nor bad, right? You know, uh, you want to be able to say, oh, technology is awesome or technology is awful. But it's really what technology can allow you to do.
Um, and it can allow you to do many good things, and it can allow people to do many bad things. So I think that's one of the things that we're talking about. Like what, what are the different possibilities when it comes to the idea of transhumanism? Um, you know, how much altering what humans can do, or elevating, or whatever, verb you want to use is a good thing and how, and what aspects of it might be a not so good thing, I guess.
[00:05:32] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And I mean, I like the fact that you mentioned the wheel. Cause I remember I was reading, well, actually it was something that, um, the later, the late Steve Jobs said one time when he said he was reading about a research about how fast, who are the fastest and slower animals.
Um, And I like to say this and some maybe people already heard it, but so obviously the man is not as fast as the horse, the human, uh, as far as the horses, as far as, you know, if a condor that can fly and, and how much energy actually they use when they do that. It was focused on kind of like the combination on the two.
And, um, in term of energy, he said, well, what, but, but if you put the man on a bike, then he goes on the top of the chain. And it makes you think like, and I like to think that way, how technology is an extension of our humanity, because we invented, we think about it, we created it, and then we, we adopted. So the wheel, it's one thing, you know, created, allowed to do a lot of things, but When we talk about genetic manipulation, uploading our brain into the cloud and having artificial intelligence and robotics and nanotechnology, it's an all different level of technology.
So that's the one we're talking about. But I think historically, and as far as the history of humanity and humans, it's It's good to think about that too. The invention of fires. Yeah. Controlling and be able to start fires on iChange. The way we eat, the way we, we defend from other animals and so on. So it's,
[00:07:29] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: yeah.
So I think one dimension we, you know, you, when you're thinking about transhumanism, uh, is, you know, the invasiveness of the technology, right? So something like the wheel, you're not actually strapping and attaching to your leg or body. Um, And you can't like remove it or something like that. Whereas in some cases you're talking about like highly invasive things.
Um, and then the other thing, another dimension to talk about is, you know, how things can be used and misused. Um, you know, uh, in theory, there are many ways you can misuse a wheel. You can go and. Put a bunch of wheels on your friend's bed and then the bed starts rolling away or something of that sort. Um, but when something is less invasive, then there's less, I guess, less of a dangers or fewer dangers, they're still dangerous, but the more invasive something gets, um, the more concern there is, uh, in terms of things like side effects or privacy.
Or even things like control, um, where, and, uh, so there's all those different types of dimensions. So again, the topic of transhumanism is broad and it's also how you want to define it. So, um, you'll find people when they talk about, they're going to define it in different ways to different levels of invasiveness.
Um, but the actual dictionary definition is still fairly broad where you're really sort of enhancing human capabilities. Um, using technology.
[00:09:10] Marco Ciappelli: One of the thing I think we can do this, Bruce, this episode is kind of like a general introduction of all the topics that are around this. And then I think in the next episode, we could kind of like focus more on some like, again, integration with computer expanding our intelligence and creating in.
I don't know. Uh, another me. That's, that's one thing that Ray talks about in the, in the book. Um, and how weird that may sound, but it's also come out of how we don't really know exactly yet how our brain is working. And we're, and we're saying, Hey, um, Language learning model are working, um, because we try to mimic the brain, but, and they're amazing.
CHAT GPT is amazing, but we don't really know exactly how it works. So I feel like we're really playing with fire here. And that may be something that we want to touch on as a, as a prelude to the next conversation. Like, are we really just going for it? And should we?
[00:10:25] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah, that's, that's a, that's an important point because I think there can be a tendency to, you know, naturally you want technology to move forward and that's how you want things to improve and society to improve.
But sometimes you're going to be a focus on certain things without thinking about what the consequences are, you know, what did some of the unintended consequences are, especially when we have, you know, I, I, um, you mentioned CHAT GPT and that's when, you know, that's in vogue, right? So people will say, Oh, you know, they talked to CHAT GPT.
But if you actually ask people, what is the basis of CHAT GPT? You know, how is it actually coming up with the answers? Um, many people are not going to be able to answer that, right? So, um, but you're, you're having increasing reliance on CHAT GPT. So people are talking about, you know, having it write, write things for them.
Uh, compose things for them, compose a poem. Someone will talk about composing songs and those things like that. But you have to really understand what the basis for that is, because then you can have a sense of where things could potentially go wrong. Uh, similarly, if you're going to do something where you are taking an invasive step, um, you're planting something within the body, for instance, where you're changing something in the body, it is helpful to know, well, what else might you be changing or what else might the consequences be?
Um, and that's not always discussed because it's easy for you to kind of get worried. Excited or caught up with like a single a single goal. So
[00:12:05] Marco Ciappelli: yeah, I I agree. I mean But it's very human if we we do most of the thing in our life and we use technology and we have no idea I couldn't I couldn't make a bulb like a light bulb myself, but I use it every day and I feel like you know, it's it's it's uh, It's part of who we are.
So but the difference is inside of your body and and alterating You The way you feel I mean, there is a lot of technology that help us to extend our life I mean a hundred years ago or a hundred and fifty years ago that I think I'm just throwing a number there But the average lifespan was like 50 60 years old and in the middle age Of course was even less and it was very hard there was people living a long life, but there was more of the exception than than the rule and now because of Medicine and technology and health care and preventive.
We, you know, we have extended that so but, but again, we, I don't think we realize that we're using already all this, this technology and we just, we just do so. And a lot of people talking about CHAT GPT. Statistically, when they do research and ask people, they're like, they think that he's already sentient.
And yeah, truth is, this is just randomly putting probability together of what the next word sounds better. So when you say thank you, CHAT GPT, because you think that one day could come after you, it kind of makes me laugh. And I, and I do that. It's like, can you please tell me, you know, instead of just go direct as it's just a computer.
[00:13:49] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah, they don't, there's not a realization that it's sort of based on the corpus of knowledge that's out there and then seeing what, you know, is associated. So if, if in theory, you were to tell everyone, okay, just say the word CHOCOLATE. After you say thank you and everyone keeps doing that, eventually CHAT GPT would do that because it's, it would associate chocolate with thank you.
Uh,
[00:14:11] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: of course we know like you're welcome is associated with, with, with thank you. But, um, yeah, I mean, I think you mentioned sort of a, you know, a classic example is with, with x rays, obviously x rays have really helped medical. Um, the medical field, but there was a period of time when people started using x rays to measure people's feet, to fit shoes.
Yeah. Until they realized that that's not a good thing to expose people to radiation. Just every time they want to try on shoes.
[00:14:41] Marco Ciappelli: I had no idea.
[00:14:43] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah. So there's, there's examples of that route where, you know, you, you get excited about something and then you just kind of extend it in different ways. And unless you think about these things, um, you know, you don't.
Uh, you don't know what might, might happen. Um, but yeah, I mean, if you think about, for instance, trans humanism, there's, you know, different things, people talking about implants, you know, mechanical devices in, in humans. Um, and so that's one thing too, is people talking about, uh, you know, somehow connecting.
Um, different aspects of brains thinking with, you know, external devices or what have you, or people talking about like modifying genetics, uh, or modifying different aspects of physiology, uh, and those types of things. Um, and each of these, I should emphasize haven't sprung magically. sprung up magically within the last few years.
They're actually the result of, you know, a steady evolution in these different areas. It's interesting because we tend to think there's, it can be a tendency to think that these things jump out, you know, just like AI and CHAT GPT just suddenly jumped out in like the past five to 10 years,
but no,
[00:16:06] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: it's been going on for a while.
So if you think about it, the idea of using devices, for instance, to, to With humans has been going on for years. Uh, you know, you've got artificial valves, you've got, you know, uh, people, uh, you know, with artificial limbs. Um, so different types of devices to facilitate, um, human function. And in many cases it started off, you know, someone doesn't have a, a human function or there are some type of human function either by birth or by accident.
Was reduced or taken away. And so a lot of the initial devices were, were focused on trying to restore some of that or help enhance the function. And so, um, you know, that has been more of a kid to him. So, you know, the argument that if someone has lost some function based on an accident, very people, very few people will say, well, that does, that person doesn't have a right to.
You know, try to restore some of that function, you know, it's viewed as, as a, as a positive thing. But then if you, then you start progressing and saying, well, what if you use devices to actually enhance human function? Uh, so I remember, for instance, there was that argument, um, with the, uh, uh, remember the, uh, the track runner from, um, uh, South Africa,
[00:17:36] Marco Ciappelli: yeah,
[00:17:38] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: um, Oscar Pretorius, I think his name was using the blades and some of the people were arguing, well, that blade, those blades can actually allow you to run faster.
Um, so that became the discussion of whether that was actually something that would be considered an aiding device. When it began as a device, because, you know, there was, um, uh, if, if someone didn't have, you know, a complete set of limbs, um, so, so we're really, we've really gotten here gradually, but what has really changed, I think, is awareness.
And then the thought of how these can be extended. Um, so that's, that's become. More common from a public standpoint and then you start hearing these stories about oh my goodness, you know Um, so so wanted to put that historical context with all these things.
[00:18:36] Marco Ciappelli: Absolutely and there was actually an interesting Conversation I had last year before CES and we were talking about how The internet, for example, took a long time to get in everybody's house and uh, and, and, uh, and all 'cause the infrastructure was not there and the computational power wasn't there, but it was there.
I mean, let's not forget the internet goes back to the late sixties. So, and again, , it wasn't actually 96 or 97 when it became commercial. Um, but then we were talking about how CHAT GPT, it didn't take that long to get in everybody's hand. And, and the reason for it that I was explaining is because the infrastructure was already there.
We already had this super powerful phone in our hands and computer that can run, you know, in the cloud and then locally on your machine. So when, when this happened, it just used. A highway that was already built. And so it went from zero to million or billion to you of user in Pretty much no time and I think what you said that gave the idea that it was sudden but the truth is, you know, Alan Turing was talking about that in the 50s and But we didn't have the computer power the storage power very expensive to add and the type of computing that we, that we needed.
So it's the convergence of thing. And, and I think it goes back to convergence of thing now that happened so fast. And, you know, I, so my question, I would like to talk about this, like where, where do we draw the line between
ethically acceptable, like you said, it's fixing people, right? In medicine. Versus this is transhumanism because it's actually not fixing, but announcing something didn't need to be fixed. Is that where we could kind of cross the line?
[00:21:06] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Absolutely. I think that's, that's an important thing to consider. Um, and it's not an easy, not necessarily an easy question to answer.
But it's important to, to think about the different possibilities. Okay. Uh, as you mentioned, Margo, in advance, right? So you don't want to be in a situation and we've seen this so many times where, uh, technology or things change and they change in a way where you don't really actually realize all the benefits of the technology and they actually go in the wrong direction.
Um, you know, so we've seen that in some cases with social media, very benefits. There are many benefits of social media, but then some of the other things got co opted. Um, and then, you know, it was only what a decade or so after social media became really popular where you started hearing these reports of negative aspects of it.
So, uh, so those discussions weren't really being had. And when, when that, you know, the other concern is that, you know, there's a lot of brainpower naturally throughout the world. Um, and ideally you want the brainpower to focus on solving problems, not creating new ones. So, um, yeah, so if you can kind of think about like, How some of these things can actually solve problems and not create new ones.
I think it's better to do that in advance
[00:22:32] Marco Ciappelli: So you mentioned implants and I think we we could talk just to focus on something for the next 10 minutes That's something it's it's on people Mind is in the news, of course, you know, you you got Elon Musk, but you got other player Um, a little less mark, using a little less marketing, but they're still doing amazing things in terms of implant and helping people to walk again.
We know that now with implants, you can, you can ease certain degenerative diseases like Alzheimer's and I think Parkinson's diseases you could control, um, with electric stimulus. The, the issues connected with that, those disease, um, and that everybody's fine with that, right? Again, so, yeah, that's cool. Um, you're welcome.
No, I mean, you've got diabetes. Uh, yeah, I'm welcoming insulin and constant monitor system and, and a pump. So in a way, you know, we're, we're already trans human in a way, but it's not actually enhancing. It's not making me think faster, or better, or, or enhance, so that people accept it. Um, But I don't know if you can do one without the other because we we tend to do that as human.
I mean we tend to be Dr. Frankenstein, Mary Shelley, Dr. Frankenstein. I mean, I think it's a good a good analogy looking back at you know, 100 years ago and or more when that was the idea was considered at that point.
[00:24:19] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah. Well, we even have to you know Even look at things like performance enhancing drugs, right?
All those, um, PEDs that people talk about with, with athletics, those, all those medications start off as medications to many of them to help treat conditions or diseases. But then, then you got, at some point you started having athletes use them to try to enhance their performance. So that's the analogy there.
There is, you know, um, if, if someone has a disease or in condition and they need some type of. Steroids or whatever for it, then there's not an issue, but like if someone's using it to actually be able to run or faster or lift more things or be stronger than, then, then there's the concern that that means the playing field is no longer level.
Um, so we, we, we've seen the examples of this in different ways. Um, and also the tendency to take things a different step, a different level.
[00:25:22] Marco Ciappelli: And that's what scares me. That's somebody that look at things from a sociological perspective and a human perspective. I think that that's just the way we are. And I don't want to sound negative, but you know, that's, that's what drive us as humans and that's also, in a way, it's our, it's our blessing and our curse.
[00:25:46] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah. And you know, that's a very, you know, performance enhancing drugs is in many ways, um, a quote unquote case study or, you know, uh, foreshadowing, uh, because you see all the same issues, right? So you see people say, and they work, you know, you see people suddenly become very productive in sports. They suddenly start winning things.
So it works, but you know, that may, there's many situations where. Over longer periods of time, taking those medications or those drugs is bad for your health. Uh, and so not only does it make potentially make the playing field on level, it also can have consequences to the person taking. Those things. And, but they're not thinking, they may be thinking like, I can win the gold medal if I get through this.
I can win such and such championship or, you know, it could be a hall of fame or whatever, if I, if I take this, but they don't realize over a long time, they're actually sacrificing their health. And I think there's some similar situations here where you don't have the long term data on how some of these approaches that are being discussed.
Um, you know, what the impact might be. And so the risk benefit ratio is different if you have a problem, if you have a medical issue that's preventing you, you're functioning. So, um, just like, you know, one extreme is, you know, a lot of cancer medications, like chemotherapy agents, they have very severe side effects in many cases, right?
But, you know, the goal is you want to get rid of the cancer cells. So people are willing to tolerate higher. You know, worse side effects. So there's that balance. So if you are trying to treat a condition, then you might be willing to tolerate the side effects or the problems that you rise. If you get to a point where you're not actually trying to treat a condition, but you're trying to enhance your situation, then the risk benefit racial changes, right?
You don't need that. So you may not necessarily be willing to, or should tolerate the potential risks. Of doing something. And in order to determine the risks, you need data, right? You need information on what's going to happen over time with a, with a particular technology, and that's not always known that that takes time to actually, uh, generate.
Um, so that's something to keep in mind.
[00:28:24] Marco Ciappelli: The other thing to keep in mind is, is that different people, and we talk about that in cybersecurity all the time, at different level of comfort with risk.
[00:28:35] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yep.
[00:28:36] Marco Ciappelli: Right, then fuck it. I'm not gonna buy a car insurance if it happen happen, but what is the chance that's gonna happen?
Yeah people Yeah, i'm gonna get the best insurance because if it does happen I don't want to find myself in trouble and then you know that you don't you leave the door open or you close the door lock it three times or Put the alarm system and and and the truth is that And i'm realizing that more and more is that there is not a human You Common denominator.
Humans are very different one with the other like Values and virtues and they change with history. They change with cultures. They you know, what is Virtue today wasn't a virtue in in the Middle Age. It was more of a virtue to kill someone because of fender your You know, you're, you're princess, something like that.
And now you're like, no, you're more virtue if you don't actually do that. Uh, so things change. And, and, and, and a big question is who makes those decisions for everybody else. So if you want to go philosophical, I think that's a big question. Like, what is the, the level of, you know, the, uh, the rights, the human rights that are, and, and, and, um, I can't pronounce the word that nobody can touch.
Alienable or something like that. Um, so that, that's the other thing. I think that's why sometimes we go to the point where we just can't stop it or think of before because I don't think we can all agree and technology is not going to wait for everybody to agree, especially when there's money involved, uh, into, into the equation and you want to be first on market and kind of like technology backing In the 90s and 2000, let's break everything and then let's see what happened.
[00:30:35] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah. I mean, I think an analogy is, uh, you know, what's constantly faced with when it comes to food and things like that. Right. So. You don't necessarily go around and dictate to everyone that you should eat this. Like, you don't walk over and say, you know, you slap down what they're eating and say, no, you should eat this instead.
Right. Um, but you know, uh, approach that has been taken historically is there, there is a need for transparency, right? There's a need for labels and those things like that. So people actually know what they're eating, um, so that they can make quote unquote informed decisions. Um, that they actually have information in front of them if they want it and that they can use that information.
You know, the dangers are when you don't have that information, when you don't know what the consequences of something might be and you're making a non informed decision. Um, so I think, uh, yeah, realistically to have like one set of rules for everyone and say, you will just do this, nothing but this, that's not realistic because you're absolutely right.
There's different. You know, different people have different situations, you know, um, I might have a need to have garlic over my shoulder. Other people might say, well, that's ridiculous. So, but, um, so I guess part of it is there are some things that everyone will mutually agree Is bad, right? So like, uh, don't eat cinder blocks, you know, it might be an example.
I know. I don't think too many people will say, no, I have a right to eat cinder blocks. I want to eat as many cinder blocks as I want to. Right. So then we'll say, okay, that's not good because that's going to, you know, that's harmful. So part of it is saying, what are the things that are going to be universally bad that we know are just things that shouldn't be done?
Okay. So then there's that, then there's a whole continuum of things, like you said, that will depend on people's situations. So then it is helpful to really kind of know what are the pros and cons, what are the risks, benefits, and those things like that, so people can make informed decisions. And we think about that.
We do it all the time with a lot of things. Um, you know, technology shouldn't be different. Um, so I've heard people argue that, well, technology is complex. Not everyone can understand technology. But actually, I don't know. I, I, I believe that people Everyone out there actually, if it's explained in the right way, if it's explained without using 50 million pieces of jargon, can actually understand what a lot of these things do.
Um, so I think that's part of it. Um, helping people really understand what each of these things actually do.
[00:33:25] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And you did, I think you made a really good point. And it's, you don't need to know how to build it. You don't need to know how to, to build the car, but you got to know how to drive it. Or you're going to be.
Dangerous for other people if you go in the street, and that's why we have driver license and you know, and And you don't just get in the car and say, all right, how does this thing go? Let me figure that out Which is what we do actually with technology most of the time because it doesn't even come with manual anymore I mean, I remember I would buy like a an hi fi system as a teenager that was the Big technology growing up like in the 80s and or the vhs or that kind of stuff and you're like, all right I mean look at the manual or you know play around but I wasn't hurting anybody maybe my ear if I were playing too loud
Yeah,
and now we are again.
We're on all another level of technology and we're using this phone we give it to kids and You We don't even know ourselves Really you can do with it. So the basic knowledge, I don't want you to build it I don't want I don't need to invent the light bulb It's already there, but I need to know how to turn it on and off and if it flickers Maybe you know, maybe I want to change it.
Maybe it's gonna get the house on fire or something like that So I agree with you, like, that basic understanding that can allow people to, to make decisions, and not everybody's going to care, but I'm feeling good about the majority would make educated decisions, and that, that I think that's where the public opinion comes in when, when legislators are going to go and tackle the guardrail that we're talking at the beginning.
[00:35:18] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: It's interesting. I was, uh, unpacking the other day, like some computer hardware stuff in some bags and they put in plastic bags. And so the plastic bag comes with a warning that you shouldn't put it on your head, right? You shouldn't put it on your head because you might suffocate. Which I said, okay, I'm glad they told me that because that's what I was going to do, put it on my head.
[00:35:42] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah.
[00:35:42] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: So you have something that Some things that have warnings, but then other things don't, right? Like some other things you have no idea what the risks might be. So there is a, there is a, um, imbalance, uh, where you have excess amount of warnings about certain things and then other things, the, uh, people are a lot less aware of.
So,
[00:36:08] Marco Ciappelli: yeah, I remember, uh, one time when I, you know, bought a candle years and years ago and don't put it near draperies cause they may get on fire. No shit. Or, you know, like the same thing you just mentioned is like, this is common sense, but somebody did it. Right. Somebody did put many people probably put that on their head and maybe kids and therefore the lawyer has to come in and force that company to do to do that or You know when people burn themselves at the starbucks coffee and now they're getting You gotta put the sleeves and he's like, dude, really?
You didn't know that coffee was going to be hot?
[00:36:52] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: No, if you've I, I remember a number of years ago, I worked in the emergency room. All you need to do is work in the emergency room for a certain period of time to realize that. People will try anything with anything.
[00:37:07] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, that I guess is a life changing experience. Yes. Change your perspective on, on, on things for sure. So every time
[00:37:16] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: you see a warning, you know that someone somewhere did that. So, yeah.
[00:37:22] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. But, but there's not a warning on social media again, where it says, what you see. Seeing your feed May or maybe not true or may and maybe not a bot because 50 percent of the internet traffic it is actually non human and And people get offended because some bot You know troll them and you know, just let it go.
But maybe if you knew that you wouldn't do it Well, I really enjoy this conversation. I'm so glad that we got back together with our Serious in the bar. I'm so glad you brought the garlic with you because it's been a reminder of To me at least looking at it. I knew all the time that You need to be a little bit concerned sometimes and then Maybe you relax after let me maybe start with a question mark That's that's the the garlic lesson right here.
And once you understand you maybe you can start doing and using technology That would be a good good lesson
[00:38:31] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Yeah, I think the garlic is still, as you can see, uh, a little concerned. Uh, there's a concerned expression there. And I think one of the reasons why the garlic is still concerned is I think we've, you know, we, we've talked about some of the issues with transhumanism, but there's also a lot of deeper dives that we can take and other things that we can discuss almost as a preview for our next, um, series of episodes.
There's, uh, there's many other things to talk about. So, you know, uh, we, we should take our cue from the garlic. Um, that, uh, shouldn't necessarily be rest assured that, uh, it's a simple matter.
[00:39:10] Marco Ciappelli: Stay, definitely stay connected and tuned for the next episode when we dive in. And that could be, I'm just reading a few points, healthcare inequality in the age of singularity, who is going to benefit?
The most of this, this advance in technology, that's something very dear to me. Uh, the human augmentation and ethical line that we kind of covered today, but also some more crazy stuff like, uh, uploading your, your brain in the cloud and I have an extension of your brain, which is like a lot of people don't use and probably neither I, the full extent of my brain.
So why do I need an extension Another one full of terabyte and terabyte of, but that's another conversation we can have. And, uh, And also, you know, not just being critic. I mean, there is a lot of positive thing in the, for the evolution of humanity. So I would say everybody stay tuned. I hope you enjoy our return in the, in the bar with the carbon, the silicon and the cell, and, uh, stay tuned, subscribe and Bruce.
Thank you so much you and the garlic. Maybe next time bring a garlic that change expression so you can You know, depending on what we talk about we have a different reaction.
[00:40:26] Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, M.D.: Well, that's really up to the garlic as we talked about, you know, we can give guide rails and you know be Transparent to the garlic but ultimately the garlic decides
[00:40:37] Marco Ciappelli: It's, it's, it's all, it's all in, in the garlic mind and his mind right now is still concerned as it probably should, I think is a good thing.
All right. Thank you, everybody. You'll find a connect the link to connect with Bruce and all the, the, the incredible things that he does, uh, in his career and as a, as a writer, as a journalist, and, uh, he's really funny. To so if you haven't figured that out with the garlic story, you may want to know him a little bit better So stay tuned subscribe and we'll see you next time.
Same bar. Same garlic and different topic