In this engaging episode, Marco Ciappelli, a familiar voice to the ITSPmagazine Podcast Network and host of the Redefining Society show, had the honor of introducing his audience to the noteworthy and timely new podcast, Getting Technology Right — Ethics and Technology hosted by Dr. Kevin Macnish.
Guest: Dr. Kevin Macnish
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/dr-kevin-macnish
Hosts:
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
In this engaging episode, Marco Ciappelli, a familiar voice to the ITSPmagazine Podcast Network and host of the Redefining Society show, had the honor of introducing his audience to the noteworthy and timely new podcast, Getting Technology Right — Ethics and Technology hosted by Dr. Kevin Macnish.
Ciappelli, known for his forward-thinking views on societal shifts in the face of advancing technology, warmly welcomed the new podcast hosted by Dr. Kevin Macnish into the network's portfolio of insightful technology-related content. He believes that this addition would significantly enrich the quality of the discourse on the network and add substantial value to listeners who are eager to understand the ethical implications of rapidly evolving technology.
Ciappelli emphasized that the Getting Technology Right — Ethics and Technology podcast is incredibly relevant in today's fast-paced digital world. The show's dedication to unraveling the complex relationship between ethics, technology, and society resonates with the ethos of the ITSPmagazine Podcast Network and Redefining Society's audience, which always appreciates thought-provoking discussions that push the boundaries of conventional thought.
With his introduction, Ciappelli affirmed the importance of the show's mission to encourage listeners to question and understand the role of technology in our lives better. This new podcast is anticipated to be a major hit amongst listeners, making a significant contribution to the ongoing dialogue about the intersection of ethics and technology.
About Dr. Kevin Macnish, Ph.D
Host, Getting Technology Right — Ethics And Technology Podcast
Getting Technology Right — Ethics And Technology Podcast
Dr. Kevin Macnish is Consulting Senior Manager in Digital Ethics with Sopra Steria. Kevin is a former analyst at GCHQ and the US DoD and an assistant professor at the universities of Leeds and Twente. He has been interviewed widely and has spoken at the Houses of Commons and Lords.
Kevin has published 50 academic articles, chapters, and books on ethics and technology. He is a visiting Research Fellow at the University of Leeds, a former member of the International Association of Privacy Professionals’ Research Advisory Board, and current ethics expert for the UK Information Commissioners Office.
About "Getting Technology Right — Ethics And Technology Podcast"
A podcast hosted by Kevin Macnish
This show will involve a monthly discussion with an academic or practitioner in ethics and technology. Topics to be covered include global values in tech, diversity and inclusion, discrimination, transparence and data, privacy, cybersecurity, etc. The intended audience will be all adults with an interest in technology and the impact it has on people, society and the environment.
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Resources
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Getting Technology Right with Dr. Kevin Macnish playlist on YouTube
https://studio.youtube.com/playlist/PLnYu0psdcllQKj2UtZRQnaCh2ty93jMkA
For more podcasts from Getting Technology Right with Dr. Kevin Macnish
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
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voiceover 00:15
Welcome to the ITSPmagazine Podcast Network. You are about to listen to the Getting Technology right ethics and technology podcast with Dr. Kevin McNish. Get ready for a conversation about global values and technology, diversity and inclusion, discrimination, transparency and data privacy and cybersecurity. Knowledge is power. Now more than ever
Marco Ciappelli 00:48
All right here we go from an undisclosed location away from my office, but in another made up office in Italy, where it is hot, so that you go and before arriving here, I was in the UK for info security Europe, and it was hot. And I'm not lying. Kevin. Please tell us it was
Kevin Macnish 01:13
it was a very hot week last year I was in London as well. We we've just found out we were at the same conference center but a different conferences at the same time. But no, it was it was 2930 degrees centigrade last week in London and my hotel room did not have air conditioning. So Oh, no. Yeah, it was it was warm in Shepherds Bush for a few nights.
Marco Ciappelli 01:35
Yeah, actually Edexcel they had they really had a cranking the AC and when you walked outside it you could really kind of feel your your skin burning a little bit. So like, this is the first time I'm getting a 10 in London. And and I enjoy it. I mean, I love this city. But we're not here to talk about London. We're here to talk about an important topic, which I try to talk about a lot. I've talked about it with you many times, we've been on panels together, and it's about getting technology, right. And the occasion is that you actually started a show with us. And that's exciting. So not just the guests, but you take the burden of actually inviting people planning, not just showing up for for that, but you also get the you get the benefit of driving the conversation and I think having fun, but we'll get into that into the why. Let's start with you. Who is Kevin McNish for those that haven't heard from you and that and what did you start it? On? ITSPmagazine?
Kevin Macnish 02:37
Sure. So thanks, Marco. Yeah, so Kevin McNish. I currently work as a consulting senior manager at a company called SAPA hysteria. It's mostly an IT company. But about two and a half years ago, the company set up a digital ethics consultancy. And so I joined it shortly into into that lifespan. And I've been working with them for just over two years now working with clients, helping them to see how to use technology Well, putting guardrails in place to stop mistakes from happening, and seeing where we can help them to benefit most on one level. It's kind of like sort of doing a risk analysis of where things
can go wrong with technology, but also trying to be more positive and staying awake and things go right and how can we make your technology do even better things for you, while making sure that it's not discriminating or violating people's privacy, that it's sufficiently transparent, and so on. But prior to joining Sapa, hysteria, two years ago, I was an academic working at the University of Leeds and then the University of Toronto, where I was an assistant professor working in ethics and technology in both of those areas as well. So that's my sort of academic background with a bit of publishing, I've got a few articles, a few books out and so on, and then moved over to the industrial world two years ago. And I think, is, as you say, why, why the podcast and why now, it was a way of keeping in touch with a lot of friends from academia, and a way of connecting with other people doing the same thing right now. The the world of digital ethics consulting is quite small. There are sort of handful of us maybe 1015 universities around the world, I think. And so we all kind of know each other, to a greater or lesser degree in his way of keeping in touch there. But also bringing in what's happening in the academic world, what's happening in philosophy and sociology, and computer science to understand what the ethical issues are, how they're being handled, and challenged at the forefront of academic research, and how that can then translate over into what we're doing an industry and what the difference is there.
Marco Ciappelli 04:50
Yeah, yeah, no, I was excited that you was getting this started because I think you're gonna do that more. Academic commerce Question, of course, we're covering about the same thing. I mean, I stay a little bit more general in terms of redefining society. But that's, you know what we're doing here. And I want to start these by asking you, I mean, you mentioned there is only a few people that do this. And I'm thinking like, I have never heard talking so much about ethics. And even bringing philosophy back. I mean, my background is to psychology, and political science. And I feel like, well, maybe I am in the right place nowadays, because it comes down, it's not more the technology anymore, that is going to have the easy button to fix technology, we really it's a way to look in our own humanity. So I'm getting already philosophical here. But is that something you're feeling the pulse as well, as you talk to people?
Kevin Macnish 05:53
Very definitely. I think it's interesting, you should say that, because I think looking at the job market right now, if you look at the jobs that are advertised for in house, digital ethics, experts, they're still looking very much for technical expertise. And that seems to be the feeling from people who are not in this world, that the solution lies with technology. And the technology has got us into this problem of bias. And therefore technology should be able to resolve it. And certainly people are selling, you know, bias scanners, AI, personal information, scatters and things like that, which can do some of the work. But they'll never do everything, because it's not context sensitive. And it's just never going to be, yeah, it's never going to solve the solutions that people have to be involved. And I think, in two to three years time, we'll start to see this. And one of the big things which we see and push on is the importance of corporate culture that needs to go along with that you can't simply just put policies and so on in place, saying, Well, you've got to be non discriminating in your data sets or your algorithms, that's just not going to cut it. And people have to understand what that means and what that looks like, and where you go, and so on. And as you're saying, mark a year, there's been a huge amount of discussion, particularly since last November, with with chat GPT.
Marco Ciappelli 07:22
Yeah, I was gonna say that, let's, let's see, let's say the Big Bang was
Kevin Macnish 07:29
suddenly, I think, obviously, I was aware of GPT three, and the forthcoming GPT, four, as it was forthcoming at the time, but chat GPT opened up everybody's eyes to what large language models can do and what they look like. And they are about to say quietly revolutionizing, it's not quiet at all, it is revolutionizing the market, places We're revolutionizing the workplace, and universities are not always in a good way. Some of the things we're seeing is people coming back down and just putting a blanket
ban on using chat GPT across their organization. Of course, everyone just ignores that and uses it on their phone anyway. So the CNN again, this is why culture is important, because at the senior levels of a company, they think we've got this sorted, we don't need to worry about proprietary information, finding its way into chat GPT. But at the lower levels, that's exactly what's happening. And then you've got the ethical questions around, you know, potential for bias within large language models, the lack of robustness of veracity, so they're not always truthful, in what they say. And yeah, there's a huge amount of interest kicking off around them now, not to mention the legality. And that came up recently, in one of the conversations I was having with a guest around the fact that, you know, if these systems which we, I believe they have have scraped data from the internet to get personal data, then that's technically illegal, according to the General Data Protection Regulation. And so what is going to happen there? I have no idea but it remains to be seen as to where these things go. But huge, huge questions about what's happening in society because of developments in machine learning and MLMs and so on. So yeah, fascinating time to be involved in all of this.
Marco Ciappelli 09:22
Yeah, absolutely. I think it I don't know, one every three podcasts I have, it's about either charge GPT or generative AI or Delhi. Writing music. Well, you know, it's, I feel like again, if we're looking at it's kind of like when you ask to an astronaut, you know, what do you learn when you go in space? And you said, you know, we learn about ourself, you know about our planet by looking from outside and I feel sometimes the same. I'd like this. Sometimes very lively chat with Chad GPT. And I tried to have a conversation I'm kind of using it myself to ride more, but it's kind of like this collaborative thing. It's not just like a right, ABC. But I feel like I'm kind of seeing the universe, the humanity in there in this case, because as I said, you know, whatever, whatever harvest has been done, it's the good and the bad of humanity is the article is the best, the fake information, the manipulation. So it's kind of like, Yeah, this is what we look like that so I'm sure you'll talk about about this. What else? What else are you going to focus on the show?
Kevin Macnish 10:43
So my Coke, given the background, I've got one of the things which really drives me is understanding how to operationalize or embed ethics into the workplace. So as an academic philosopher, a lot of the work I was doing was around researching what are the principles? What are the ideas that are important? And I think we kind of got there by about, particularly with AI, certainly is in its current stand, we got there about 2018 2019 have a pretty good understanding of what are the ethical issues? The thing which has been motivating both academia and industry for the intervening five years has been well, that's fine. How do we actually make that real? How do we say that technology should not discriminate? That's great. How do we stop it from discriminating? How do we ensure that like, you know, you've got things like LaTanya Sweeney, the researcher at think she's at MIT or Harvard, doing some Columbia, one of those, doing some research on her her name, which is a classic sort of African American name, and finding out that the pictures that came up, when you looked at the Tanya were all of black teenagers who were being arrested. And yet, when you search up a name, like John or Julian, you get white men who are all successful at university or whatever. And so those sorts of biases, which are just built into systems, and obviously that was about 10 years ago now. But they're still there. They're just more subtle and harder to spot. And so questions like that, I think, really motivate me, how do we deal with that? How do we make this stuff real in order to really protect people going forward, so that the technology that we have genuinely benefits people in the way that we wanted to without some of those side effects coming along? And then taking us out at the knees?
Marco Ciappelli 12:44
Yeah, so who you're going to talk about this? I mean, you're going to try to talk to people that I'm assuming most people in academia, they will agree with you or me, and, you know, looking at this thing and say, I didn't want you know, I mean, if you don't see this, we got a problem. But you need glasses,
but are you planning to maybe do some more open conversation when maybe somebody may have a different opinion on it? Or? Yeah, we're gonna be, we went together, I'd
Kevin Macnish 13:17
love to exactly. Yeah, we did those panels last year, and they were great. I think the frustrating thing I found with the panels was that there wasn't enough time to really get into some of those issues, even in 45 minutes, with three or four people. So that was why the move to doing these sort of one on one sessions was to get into a bit more depth. But I yeah, there's broad agreement insofar as obviously, nobody's going to say we want technology to be discriminating on grounds of race or gender or whatever. But how we get it, there is an interesting question, and one which people differ on. And then I think there are some more philosophical questions which we might come to with time. So I had spend me home on recently who's a professor in Munich, and who's just written a book. This is technology ethics, which is a great introduction to the subject. And he was, we were talking about the gap between sort of robot or tech ethics and human ethics and what happens when an AI starts to come out with its own morality, and that morality is different from human morality. How do we then square that circle? What do we do with that? And so all sorts of interesting questions. How should we treat AI is questions around? Do they have personality? Should they be given rights and things like that, which I'm quite antique but with time we'll hopefully get people on who are more Yeah, more interested in a discussion there about that. So there are lots of what I'm hesitant to do at the moment is make it too philosophical and too academic though. I do want to bring bring some of those insights in, but still keep them very accessible to, to the non academic audience. So we're trying to make sure that this is open for anybody and not just a handful of academics who know the right language.
Marco Ciappelli 15:15
Right? I mean, that the hope is that people that want to learn about it, not necessarily have the, the book base is the pillar of the living, how they can actually get the point. And I think, what is important in it, and I'm gonna ask you why you decided to do podcast? I guess I know, you're really busy. And then it takes time, but I think, at least for me, if I can make people think, yeah, I'm doing something right. So I don't expect the audience to be educated. I'm expecting more my guest more than me to educate the audience. So it is that the audience you have in mind, like the the regular person that though it is thinking it's thinking about this?
Kevin Macnish 16:03
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, very definitely. Because if we were going for for an audience of philosophers say, then yes, the language would be different. And what we were trying to achieve would be very different. But no, this is for people who have got no idea who might have read a couple of newspaper articles and said, Oh, that's really interesting. I've not really thought about ethical issues before or I've thought about ethical issues, but I don't know where to go with them. And those kinds of issues, Where were those kinds of people who were sort of really targeting on, but as you say, the, the educational aspect of it is good, both. Yeah, hopefully, for the audience, but on a very selfish level for me as well, because I'm getting to engage with all of these people, a lot of whom are friends, but it's getting me to read some of their more recent work. And, and that's very helpful just to keep my own mind active and questioning and thinking and so on to finding out what's going on in the world. Not just from the industry perspective, but also from the academic side. So it really is trying to cross that divide at the moment and see where we can, where we can learn from each other.
Marco Ciappelli 17:13
Yeah, because if you read in paper, their check, recheck. When you're talking to someone, it can come out something that you didn't, you didn't think you were gonna go there. I mean, you're almost brainstorming as you have this conversation. I mean, look at us. There's no script whatsoever. I just need to remember, sometimes they're like, We are promoting the new show, otherwise, I start asking you other counter questions. We're gonna stay there for the next, you know, five minutes, maybe they
will keep going. I know, your first step is, is out. I know, they're already in the queue, which, you know, we'll we'll publish very, very soon. And maybe a second one will be already out. By the time we published this. The first conversation I know you had with Rafi, rabbit, which I had the pleasure to have on the show. And we met through you on a panel. So again, what was that about? So that people can tease them so that when they finish this, they can jump?
Kevin Macnish 18:22
So well, a lot of what we covered was exactly what we've just been talking about this idea about embedding ethics. And she came out with a very interesting point that we, me, in recent years has been talking a lot about operationalizing ethics, which feels very professional. And yet, the challenge was, well, when you operationalize something, that's often just means getting it embedded in the code. And yet, when we're trying to get it embedded in an organization, so that everybody thinks that way. So it's not a matter of just oh, here's an extra step in the development process, where we start off with here are some ethical requirements. And then slowly, we sort of build them in. It's getting people to think about ethics. So they're aware of it and looking out for those problems. And so that was really interesting was sort of sort of pushing out into that cultural area. And also Revit sees itself much more as an activist than I do, as well as an academic and a consultant. And so it was interesting to sort of chat about some of those kinds of areas as well that she gets into. It's a fascinating conversation and a lot of fun as ever, so she's a good, good value.
Marco Ciappelli 19:33
Oh, yeah, she's very passionate, too. So yeah, definitely, definitely fun and want to Teza I know, you mentioned one, one next guest is do you have some other few? Kind of? Yeah, so
Kevin Macnish 19:48
we got push, we got we got loads that we've been talking to now. So Philip clay, who's an academic inventor, leaving a gambling who has her own consultancy in Silicon Valley dealing with a lot of startups. Send me home I just mentioned Gemma gladden Cavell in Spain, who has, she's an academic who also set up her own consultancy at UK as an S castle. Fascinating they do. They do algorithmic audits for companies, which they call sort of second party companies that come to them and say, We want you to audit our algorithm and tell us whether it's where it needs to be improved from an ethical perspective. But they also do third party algorithmic audits where the person doesn't come to them, that they do an audit, they reverse engineer the algorithm to the best of their ability, and then say, Okay, what is? What are the big apps around taxi ride sharing in Europe at the moment? And what do their algorithms look like? What are some of the Justice algorithms being used in in Spain? And can we reverse engineer those and then work out what some of the ethical problems might be? And so again, there's an activist sort of civil society element to that, which is not an area I've engaged in that much. But it really, really interesting and interesting how some of those areas are driving forward parts of the debate. So yeah, so good to see that lots of stuff coming up and more more interviews to be had.
Marco Ciappelli 21:23
And I'm assuming they have an algorithm to do that, right.
Kevin Macnish 21:27
It's very much in my head. clever enough.
Marco Ciappelli 21:34
We'll use an algorithm to analyze and outed the algorithm. Our own algorithm, because
Kevin Macnish 21:42
inception of algorithms,
Marco Ciappelli 21:45
knows what is in there. No, I mean, it's for me, again, I am happy, very happy when you told us I made my decision. I'm gonna sell the show, because I know the value of this conversation is going to be incredible. I already I'm already listening. So I'm a big fan
Kevin Macnish 22:05
of the network as well, because it's Yeah, coming into something which is already got momentum and got footprint, which is great. And, and obviously, as you said, I mean, you know, we've been talking on these podcasts for years now. So yeah, I
Marco Ciappelli 22:18
feel like we've been on for quite a while. Yeah. Fantastic. So unless you want to do add something or have a call to action for people to, you know, to join, and listen, I would just go ahead and wrap but I'll give you the mic.
Kevin Macnish 22:37
Oh, thanks. So I didn't, I should have had something prepared, shouldn't I this, this shows on our
Marco Ciappelli 22:42
air, I'll prepare, if you read it out, cut it as well.
Kevin Macnish 22:49
If you're at all interested in technology, then you should be listening to this stuff. Because technology is not relevant unless it touches on people. And as soon as it touches on people, there are ethical considerations. And so if you're at all interested in technology, and that's the broadest sense, so we've got stuff on cybersecurity, AI, robotics, all the exciting stuff going on right now do come and listen. And of course, don't stop listening to Marcos stuff as well. It's very much complimentary, what we're doing great to have this stuff going on together.
Marco Ciappelli 23:23
Yeah. And that's exactly what we want to do. And we're doing it's this networking within the network where you know, we call each other, we co host something we go as a guest, even Shawn and I started to do that lately, and it's a lot of fun. And again, I'm looking forward to all of this and invitation to everybody to visit the channel page. There is all the social media there to connect with you. There is a way to subscribe on your favorite podcast player that can be opposed Spotify, whatever it is, any app and and just tell tell everybody, I mean, we I think honestly, I just too close I sometimes I cringe when I see on TV, some people just slam me and then say we shouldn't use ChaCha to be in jeopardy. And and I would say like, Why let people use it and judge themselves. I mean, I find a lot of use, good use for that. I know there is a lot of good use in medical research and academia in a lot of places. So give it a chance. And let's listen to this conversation where somebody's
Kevin Macnish 24:38
using it intelligently, isn't it? It's about thinking and not being not just diving straight into it, but understanding what it is understanding what the risks are and going in with your eyes open just as we wouldn't. You don't get behind the wheel of a car and drive it without having done lessons and passed a test and everything else. If there's potential for harm, you need to take responsibility, but that does It means then don't use it. So
Marco Ciappelli 25:02
exactly. That's That's it, that train left the station. So you need to catch up. It's not coming back. So that's the story. Kevin, thank you so much for this time and for all you're doing for all the guests who
bring on and again, everybody stay tuned, is ITSPmagazine. And there is a lot of other new show just started there. So check it out. And stay tuned and I'll catch you next time. Take care,
Kevin Macnish 25:31
you say? Thanks. All right, bye
voiceover 25:39
We hope you enjoyed this episode of The getting technology right. Ethics and technology podcast with Dr. Kevin McNish, part of the ITSPmagazine Podcast Network. If you learned something new in this conversation made you think then add this show to your favorite podcast player. Subscribe to the ITSPmagazine YouTube channel and share the ITSPmagazine podcast network with your friends, family and colleagues. If you represent a company and wish to connect your brand to our conversations and our audience, visit itspmagazine.com to learn how to sponsor one or more of our podcast channels. We hope you will come back for more stories and follow us on our journey.