In this episode of Audio Signals Podcast, I sit down with Michael Pickard, an author whose storytelling journey began with something as simple—and profound—as writing letters to his daughter.
Guest: Michael Pickard, Author
On LinkedIn | https://linkedin.com/in/mipickard
On Twitter | https://x.com/gerfnitauthor
On Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/gerfnitauthor/
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Michael's journey into writing began when he started crafting thoughtful letters filled with life lessons and engaging narratives for his daughter. What began as a personal gesture evolved into published works, laying the foundation for a unique voice in storytelling.
Balancing Logic and Creativity
Michael’s background in software development gives him a fascinating ability to blend analytical thinking with creativity. It’s this duality that fuels his intricate detective novels, weaving complex plots, red herrings, and twists that keep readers hooked.
Transitioning Genres: From Sci-Fi to Mystery
We explored Michael’s shift from writing sci-fi to focusing on the mystery and detective genre. He shared how his characters take on lives of their own, sometimes guiding the story in directions he didn’t initially anticipate. It’s this organic growth that gives his novels depth and authenticity.
Meet Nick Chasm: A Detective with Heart
A centerpiece of our conversation was Michael’s detective series featuring Nick Chasm. This isn’t your typical mystery series—it’s character-driven, with Nick’s personal life intricately tied to his cases. For Michael, storytelling is about more than solving mysteries; it’s about making readers reflect on life, choices, and consequences.
The Role of Storytelling in a Modern World
In an age dominated by technology, Michael and I discussed the enduring importance of storytelling in connecting us to our humanity. Through his narratives, Michael crafts bridges between readers and the complex emotions and dilemmas of his characters.
Looking Toward the Future
We wrapped up by discussing how technology, including tools like generative AI, might shape the future of storytelling. With Michael’s background in software, his perspective on this intersection of creativity and tech is sure to be insightful.
This conversation was a true delight, offering a glimpse into the art of crafting stories that entertain, provoke thought, and resonate on a deeper level.
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Resources
Explore Michael's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Michael-Pickard/author/B000APFNIO?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true
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Nick Chasm, Red Herrings, and Letters That Started It All: Michael Pickard on Writing Mysteries and Storytelling | Audio Signals Podcast With Marco Ciappelli
[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Well, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Audio Signals podcast, where we talk about stories, storytelling and storytellers. I am, as you're watching the video, not in my office in LA. I'm still in Italy. And getting inspired sometimes by the creativity and the art around me, as I happen to be in Florence and people that know me, they know where I usually am.
And, uh, you know, it's really interesting to, uh, see where the ideas that then you turn into a short story or a long story or a poem or whatever, even writing a song, as people that follow me know for me, storytelling is, is a lot of different kind of art, from photography to writing. Of course, a lot of people I talk to, they are writer, and it's kind of interesting for me to, to figure out how they discover their passion for writing, and I think we're We're going to have something interesting here with my guest, , Michael Picard.
Welcome to the show. Um, I'm happy to have you.
[00:01:11] Michael Pickard: Uh, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for, uh, uh, inviting me.
[00:01:16] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I am excited. I, I know we got connected. a while back through, uh, an app that connects podcaster with, uh, with guest. And, uh, I know it takes me a little bit, cause I got about a hundred people that are trying to come on the show.
I'm not that popular, I guess, but podcast, it's, it's fun. And for me, uh, as you can see, and as you will see, because it's your first time on the show, Michael, it's really just a conversation. I want to learn about you. I want to learn how you get into writing. And why do you write about your style? And, but first of all, I want to know a little bit about you.
So the question is, who is Michael Pickard?
[00:01:58] Michael Pickard: Uh, that is a very complicated question.
[00:02:00] Marco Ciappelli: I know, I know.
[00:02:02] Michael Pickard: Because there's a lot of facts.
[00:02:03] Marco Ciappelli: You don't have to get philosophical though.
[00:02:05] Michael Pickard: It's okay. So, uh, I guess I am a person who uses, uh, both sides of my brain, uh, cooperatively. Uh, I'm a logical thinker, uh, which you have to be when you're doing computer software, which was my first career.
Uh, but, uh, the, uh, creative and inventive part, uh, the other side of my brain, uh, which allows me to invent stories, uh, and make things up, uh, And they play off each other. So I think the unique part of me is that, uh, my two, the two sides of my brain, uh, are cooperative entities. Uh, and I've been around software, uh, and retail and writing.
And, uh, I'm really fortunate to have had three careers, uh, all of which So pleasant that I never thought I was working.
[00:03:15] Marco Ciappelli: That's, that's a blessing for sure. Let me, let me ask you the first thing, because when you said the left and the right side of the brain, you know, you said they collaborate. Do they ever fight with each other when you're writing?
[00:03:30] Michael Pickard: Um, no, I think they're really good friends. All right,
[00:03:34] Marco Ciappelli: well, that's great.
[00:03:39] Michael Pickard: Do you want to give me
[00:03:40] Marco Ciappelli: some example of that?
[00:03:41] Michael Pickard: So, uh, if I am working on a detective novel, And I have to make sure that there are clues and red herrings and there's a plot that the reader can follow. That's pretty logical. But it can't be a straight path. It has to be a little twisted. And so my creativity supplements the logical with the twists and turns and things that a reader might find unexpected.
Uh, and so they, they each, each part of the brain steps up when necessary.
[00:04:25] Marco Ciappelli: But they try to go off road to kind of bring it back. Like you're going too much in that direction. Maybe let's go back and balance each other.
[00:04:35] Michael Pickard: Yeah, critique groups also, uh, constrain Uh, just how far off course my writing can go.
[00:04:45] Marco Ciappelli: That's really cool. I mean, uh, that, that, that's great. Now let, let's, let's start with what was in your, and I think it is actually in your, in your short headline bio, uh, on the website that where we met that I, that I mentioned before, where I understand that your writing passion for it came from writing letters to your daughter.
That was very intriguing to me. So if, if you want to go back to that, I would love it.
[00:05:14] Michael Pickard: Sure. Uh, my daughter was about, uh, 11 years old. Uh, we enrolled her in a one week overnight camp. It was her first away from home experience, uh, and I think she was perfectly fine with it. I was very nervous. Uh, uh, you know, she's away so I, I can't protect her.
Um. And, uh, the one thing she asked was, Daddy, I need you to write me every day. And so I'm thinking, okay, well,
[00:05:49] Marco Ciappelli: uh,
[00:05:51] Michael Pickard: what do you write to a kid away at camp that isn't boring so that they see a letter from you? And before opening it, they crumble it up and throw it in the wastebasket. So we had dinner with some friends who had sent their daughter to overnight camp the previous year.
And I asked them, uh, what did you write about? And the mom said, Oh, I told her what I had for breakfast and, um, the shopping I did. And, uh, and I'm thinking, but not saying that has got to be the most boring stuff that you could ever send to a kid. So, uh, I typically set the bar high for myself. And so I decided that I would write letters to my daughter, Samantha, that, uh, were.
Interesting and fun. So she'd want to read them and, uh, buried inside because I was a parent, I wanted to embed some life lessons in the stories. Uh, so, uh, I sat down at my. Nine inch, uh, Macintosh plus, uh, blank screen in, in Mac, uh, right. And I just started typing. So I guess I started out as a pantser. Uh, and so I came up with the name Girfknit, uh, which was a sound one of my high school buddies would make when he sneezed.
Uh, and so the title of the, the. was the Girfnit Chronicles about an alien who came to Earth and attended overnight camp, in fact, her camp, uh, and because Girfnit didn't know anything about Earthling behavior, Girfnit got everything wrong. And so, uh, It was a subtle way of telling my daughter, uh, you're at camp, you don't understand camp, but, uh, you might mess up, but don't feel bad about it.
Uh, there's always someone, something, that is going to get it worse. They're going to get things worse. And Kirfenet was the worst. So, uh, I wrote her seven letters, uh, over that week. She came home and I said, did you enjoy the letter? She said, Oh yeah, and so did all my cabin mates. So suddenly I had, uh, a readership, not just of one, but of a cabin full of campers.
Nothing happened until the next summer where the request was, can you continue the story? And so I wrote letters to her, uh, instead of one week, it was now two weeks of camp, uh, in over a five year period. And I was telling people I was writing these letters and they all wanted to see them. And so I'm burning through paper and laser toner cartridges, printing these things out and stapling them and putting rubber bands around them.
And when the five years was over and people were still asking, I decided I have to get out of the delivery business. So, uh, I contracted with a company called Ex Libris. which was one of the early print on demand companies. I didn't want to print a bunch of books and have them rot in my basement. So print on demand was perfect.
If someone wanted a book, they could order it and, uh, they'd make some money, uh, for selling that one book and I'd get a couple of pennies. Uh, but at least the, the books would be available for distribution and purchase. When the first book showed up at home and I opened the box and I smelled the ink, And I saw my name on the spine in gold leaf and my words between the covers.
I got goosebumps. I'm getting goosebumps right now. Uh, retelling it and I was hooked. Uh, I needed to keep writing. Uh, and I've been writing ever since.
[00:10:01] Marco Ciappelli: It's a great story on how sometimes you, you fall into, into these and thanks to a kid, and I happen to know how hard it is to write for kids. Cause I actually write short stories for kids with my mom, which is 75.
And, um, another thing I wanted to do, but I'm enjoying it very much. You know, I use my creativity and I'm saying this because to know that kids are A tough, tough audience. So if you hook the whole, the kids in camp, that must have been pretty good delivery, pretty good creative. And the idea of an alien coming there that make a ton of mistake and make them feel better about themselves.
I think it's, I think it's brilliant. Now, did you have it considered before to put yourself into writing when you were doing software, when you were doing other things? I don't know. Maybe as a kid, did you read a lot of books ever felt like, eh, maybe I can do something like this.
[00:10:59] Michael Pickard: Um, I, when I was going back through.
ancient papers, I came across a booklet, maybe five or six pages, where I had written a story called The Life of Mr. Oop. And it was, you know, it's dumb, kids kinds of stuff. I think I wrote it because Oop was poo backwards. I found that fascinating. When I was in high school, uh, I was one of those guys that hung out with the, quote, creative types who wrote, uh, skits and plays to be performed at the high school.
And I found that, uh, uh, very fulfilling, uh, collaborating with folks, coming up with, uh, wacky stories that, uh, the teachers would let us put on. And then that dragged me off the stage. So I did some minor stage work in high school as well.
[00:12:04] Marco Ciappelli: You knew you could do it when your daughter asked you.
[00:12:07] Michael Pickard: I guess, uh, it wasn't trepidation about writing.
It was, what can I write? where, uh, it has some value for her. I mean, if she laughs, there's value. If she learns a lesson, there's value. But just regurgitating, uh, events in my life doesn't have much value. So, uh, it, yeah, I, I knew I could do it. I just wanted to do it well.
[00:12:38] Marco Ciappelli: I remember you needed, you needed a reason and she gave you the reason to do it.
So that's really cool. So you wrote that and then, uh, then what happened? I know that you wrote, 10 novels, uh, three children's stories I'm reading here in your bio and some other short stories. So, um, I know before we start recording, you mentioned because your, your love for computer and technology, you kind of went into sci fi.
So let's start with that. We, with the first, uh, challenge and novel challenge.
[00:13:12] Michael Pickard: Yeah. Um, so the, the way I promoted the book, uh, because I never took a class in marketing in college. was I would have a box of books in my trunk. Uh, and we went to a local, uh, family reunion on my wife's side. And she had a cousin Rob from California who was in town.
And so I sold him a copy of the Kirfner Chronicles. And he was sitting out, uh, on the patio reading the book. And I don't know how many pages he had finished. And he came over and he said, I have a question for you. Of all of the Frobs, uh, that were on FrobZob, why was Girfnit picked to come to Earth? And I paused and I said, I don't know.
Well, that question generated the sequel, which was actually the prequel of how Girfnit was born and selected for this journey to Earth. So that was my second novel. Uh, and I guess some people write prequels after they write the main novel. Uh, there are lots of movies that, uh, I could cite that, that follow that model.
Uh, and after I did that, there was the possibility of doing sequels to the Griffin Chronicles. And I have a draft of one, but for some reason my heart was not in it. And one of the things I've learned is, uh, writing novels is tough. Uh, it takes me between a year and a half and, well, approximately a year and a half for me to get one, uh, to the, uh, stage where I think it's a quality work.
Um, and if I'm going to spend a year and a half of my life working on this, uh, I need to, uh, have it in my heart and in my, uh, mind. So, uh, if I have the idea, well, that's. Not sufficient. I have to, uh, believe in my heart that this story needs to be told because without that commitment, uh, it would be too easy to fall away from the novel and just leave it as a file, uh, rotting on a hard drive.
So, or on a server. You kind of
[00:15:42] Marco Ciappelli: need to wake up in the morning and think like, That's what I want to do today. Keep writing.
[00:15:47] Michael Pickard: Yes, uh, it is that commitment. I was thinking about it, uh, this morning in the shower. Uh, it's kind of like a marriage, right? Uh, it is not something that you, uh, even think about walking away from.
Uh, it is, it is part of you. Uh, uh, literally. And so you have to commit to it. And so, uh, I guess I wasn't committing to the sequels to the Gryffindor Chronicles, but there were other stories that I came up with that, uh, did arrest my attention. and my heart. And so I worked on those.
[00:16:35] Marco Ciappelli: And then you started to go from sci fi to mystery detective stories.
[00:16:42] Michael Pickard: Yeah. Uh, the last sci fi novels that I wrote, I noticed a pattern that my protagonist wasn't the police officer. Uh, wasn't even a little old lady in a town who helps the cops figure out crimes. Uh, they were just people in situations. that were difficult and they had to follow clues to figure things out.
And I decided that I would test myself to see if I had the chops to write a real detective mystery. Uh, and of course, when you do that, people would advise, take it slow. Uh, and so, uh, there is a three volume detective epic, uh, starring Nick Chasm, who is my Chicago detective. Uh, it was going to be a standalone novel.
Uh, but when you're writing a novel, you listen for a point in time when the characters begin to speak to you. Either, uh, uh, with words in your head. Or, uh, by the actions that they take. And one of the characters in, uh, the novel Creative Deductions Home Run, uh, was Nick Chasm's partner, uh, Melanie. And she was misbehaving.
She wasn't doing what I wanted her to do. That sounds weird because I'm writing the words, right? She should be doing what I write down.
[00:18:23] Marco Ciappelli: And I heard a story where the character kind of take a turn on his own.
[00:18:28] Michael Pickard: Well, that happened to me. So it's good to know that I wasn't nuts. Uh, and, uh, as I watched her behavior, uh, appear on the screen, uh, on the page, uh, I realized that her backstory and her involvement, uh, was much deeper than I had thought about.
And so that demanded a second novel to explain, uh, why she was doing what she was doing and what her involvement was and what these complications were. And as soon as I knew I had a second novel, I knew I had a third, uh, because I've been through a trilogy before. Uh, I've got a trilogy of science fiction novels.
Which are much more traditional trilogy, three separate stories, but with the same characters. That is my invasive species trilogy. And, uh, and those are aliens, not plants. And, uh, So, I have been working for the last, uh, three years, well, I guess four years since 2000, uh, on this, uh, Creative Deductions Trilogy.
Two, the first two books are published and available, and the final novel in the set, uh, will be on the market in April of next year.
[00:20:03] Marco Ciappelli: Let me ask you something, because I, I, I am very curious when I talk to writers, because it's kind of like everybody has their own He has his own style. You mentioned, you know, somebody write, you know, by the seat of their pants and some other plotters.
So they write, you know, everything down. Somebody else is in the middle. And I talked to the other day to a guy that he writes fantasy world. He'd actually start from Mapping everything where, which inspired me to do the same thing, even when I do a short story. Cause I'm like, Hey, this is a short story. If I know where that location is, it really can help my visual.
And so. But, so, like I said, I'm learning a lot of things as I go interviewing people. And I want to ask you, because you already wrote two trilogies, when do you know, I mean, you know when you have another book. You said that. When do you know that that book, that story, it's done? Because I find it's really difficult not to rewrite everything constantly.
[00:21:09] Michael Pickard: Um, so, uh, my, my general style is a hybrid. If someone comes up and says, uh, so are you a plotter or a pantser? To satisfy the question, I will tell them that I am a plotter. Uh, that I lay things, I lay things out. Uh, I start with an outline, uh, with some really deep character profiles that, uh, I develop in concert with my contributing editor.
Uh, my sister Cheryl, uh, who does a marvelous job. in collaborating on the backstories of the characters, uh, and making them, uh, the opposite of flat. Uh, they're very deep, very complicated. They have quirks and, uh, experiences that, uh, feed information into the novel. Uh, but when I'm writing the novel, From the outline, I have a scene, I have characters in it, I know what happens in the scene, but the scene is pantsed.
So, uh, I've got things set up, I know the characters well enough to know how they're going to react and act, and so I put them in a room, and then my head watches them as if I'm watching a movie. Uh, and I generate the dialogue, and eventually I go back and add, uh, the descriptions and, uh, reactions and action tags and, uh, And all the other things to, to fill it out.
So it really, in actuality is a hybrid, uh, but, uh, it does start out as a planned story that means that I know this inciting incident, I know the stakes for the protagonist, uh, and I know how the story is going to end. Sometimes, uh, in the first book in Invasive Species and the first book in Creative Deductions, I learned in the process of writing that I had more to say with those characters.
And so, uh, I intentionally, uh, included big enough cliffhangers so that at the end of the book, The reader would go, What happens next? Where's the next book? Uh, I want them to be excited about continuing the story. And I need to be excited about continuing the story in terms of writing it.
[00:23:50] Marco Ciappelli: And do you, do you still put, uh, life lessons in your invasive species or detective story like you did with your daughter?
[00:24:00] Michael Pickard: So, uh, the answer is yes. Uh, but it's a little, it's a little different. The way I describe it is that, uh, besides the pleasure I get out of writing, and I do find it pleasurable, on the consuming side, there are three reasons why I write and share my stories. One is I want to entertain. I want someone to read it and feel good at having read the story.
The second is that they learn something. So all of my stories have factual stuff in them, things that I've experienced, things that I've researched. And so people get incrementally smarter by reading my books for things that they hadn't experienced in life. But the third part, and it's the gold star, I guess, is that, uh, they walk away thinking about what they just read.
Uh, and for me, a home run, pun intended, is that if they, if they get to the end of the book, close it and even think for 30 seconds about how the character behaved, what decisions they made, the consequences of those decisions. Those kinds of things, then, uh, that means I was successful. That means that I've engaged them.
Emotionally and intellectually beyond just the words on the page.
[00:25:43] Marco Ciappelli: That's really cool. It's kind of like what I sell my other podcasts is if, if people have more questions than answers, when they finish listening, bingo, I mean, that's, that's my whole thing, especially when you talk about society and technology, it's good to have a lot of questions. Um, so let's do, I want to ask you this.
So this show is really much about. begin from the idea that we're all made of stories, right? That's my view of things from the prehistoric time to, you know, now, whatever. The technology changes, but we're still telling story to each other. So what is for you storytelling? And I know you already kind of, you know, tell me what it means to you, but if you can take it and bring it maybe to the importance of storytelling nowadays.
With all the technology that we have around and everybody has an account, everybody can share something. Maybe some people don't do it. Um, I don't know. I'm not going to go into politics, but storytelling, is it different nowadays with technology, respect of what it was? Do you feel like there is still the core is the same, what it means to you for our modern society?
[00:27:07] Michael Pickard: So I think that storytelling is as important as it ever was. So I'm doing fiction, so I'm making things up as I go along, and then editing the daylights out of it so that someone can, uh, so someone can process that in a reasonable way. Um, but there is, uh, there is heart to the characters I create, uh, because they are deeply defined.
Uh, I try my best. to connect my characters and their plight, and it's often a plight, uh, with the emotions of the reader. And so, uh, I think that that's really important, uh, that our humanity is reinforced. And so, uh, I, I am not writing books, uh, directly to that point, but I think it is a side benefit. Uh, it is part of the connection I want, uh, between the reader and my characters.
Uh, I do want my readers to care about the characters I've invented, to root for them, uh, maybe to see themselves or someone else in a character. Because I think bolstering our humanity in an ever increasing technical world. I think that's a good thing.
[00:28:58] Marco Ciappelli: I agree. I definitely agree. Um, let's, let's finish this with, I'm going to give you a couple of minutes for, I mean, you mentioned already kind of the detective Nick Kasem, and you mentioned what is the latest book with this character.
Tell me in two minutes what, what the story is about, like a little teaser, if you, if you don't mind. No, I
[00:29:24] Michael Pickard: don't mind. Uh, I was at a local library last Sunday that had an author fair and, uh, people would walk up and, uh, look at, uh, Creative Deductions Home Run, uh, which by the way, was a finalist. In the 2023 soon to be famous, Illinois, uh, contest.
Uh, and I was. Super pleased that it was my first detective novel and that the judges found that level of quality. Uh, in the work. So, uh, uh, I had to buy a bigger hat that week.
[00:30:08] Marco Ciappelli: Congratulations on that. That must have been like seeing your first book the first time that you saw it at home. Maybe even more, right?
[00:30:15] Michael Pickard: Yeah, this was a major, uh, success for me. Uh, the way I described the series is, uh, that it is, um, how the cases that Detective Nick Chasm handles have a material effect on his personal life. And so it's not just him solving a particular crime, but his life is interwoven with Uh, the things that he faces, and at least one of the people who, uh, uh, came up to the table and bought a copy of the book said, I haven't heard of any detective book being like that.
Uh, typically it's the detective estranged from the case. And it is the opposite in these novels. Uh, as a thumbnail in the first book, uh, uh, Creative Deductions Home Run, uh, Nick and his partner are assigned to, uh, a drug case. Uh, Nick makes a mistake, uh, and the drug bust goes south. Uh, and, uh, it, uh, it falls apart, uh, in a way that Uh, has consequences, significant consequences.
Uh, it's also the story of Nick getting a call from his 82 year old mother in his hometown, who, uh, pleads with him to come home because her 80 year old male companion. uh, was killed on a highway and she's certain that there was foul play. And, uh, so, uh, the bulk of the book is him investigating that, death, and, uh, supposed suicide that happened the same night.
So, uh, he has his hands full. Uh, the second book, uh, uh, Creative Deductions, Double Play. Uh, has Nick investigating the kidnapping of his partner, Mel, and, uh, spoiler, the kidnapping of his mother, uh, which drags him to Las Vegas, uh, where he meets his nemesis, and that's all I'm going to tell you about that one.
[00:32:56] Marco Ciappelli: All right. Well, I don't want you to tell more than that, actually. It sounds already quite intriguing and definitely reflects your, uh, Premises where there is any like a parallel between his life and the case that he's actually addressing. The
[00:33:13] Michael Pickard: third novel, Strike Out, is where Nick, at the end of his rope, uh, uh, feels obligated to rescue his partner, who is still kidnapped, and to take down the head of the drug cartel.
Uh, in any, in any way, in any way necessary, uh, even violating the law to do it. And so, uh, that book closes up, uh, that portion of Nick's life.
[00:33:52] Marco Ciappelli: There you go. Then arrives Flop and Everybody makes a mistake and he's an alien. I don't know. I just threw it there. Well, uh, Michael, I, I really enjoy this. I really enjoy learning about how you get yourself into writing.
I want, we should all thank your daughter for forcing you to do that in a very positive way and you taking the challenge. And actually delivering on that challenge and then going, you know, to the sci fi genre to, to the detective. And it seems to me very based on certain characters and personalities and psychology, obviously, because you can't write mystery or detective without going into the psychology of.
No. Of the story that you talk about. So that that's a big challenge. Um, so thank you very much. I'm going to throw it there that you mentioned because your background, which we didn't talk much about in, uh, in software and technology and working with Apple. Um, maybe we could talk about a little bit of the effect of technology on writing, or, you know, you mentioned generative AI, which is a topic I love to talk about quite a bit.
So maybe that's an opportunity for you to come back another time and, uh, and we can focus on, on a chat on that topic if you want to. But, uh, really glad we had this conversation.
[00:35:21] Michael Pickard: Well, I would love to come back. I think, uh, We might have a bit of a clash of attitudes, which I think would make a marvelous conversation.
[00:35:31] Marco Ciappelli: I know,
[00:35:32] Michael Pickard: so I look forward to that.
[00:35:35] Marco Ciappelli: All right. Well, thank you very much for everybody listening. Of course, there will be links to Michael books and social media, anything that he wants to share with us. So you can get in touch with him and, uh, and get his books. And as far as I'm concerned, there's more stories where this come from, which is Audio Signals Podcast.
You can watch it on YouTube and subscribe, or you can listen to To the audio, which normally is the thing I like to do because I wouldn't care to watch myself on a video Telling a story, but if people like it, hey, we're here Uh, there's of course the audio version of it as well. So michael, thank you very much Thank everybody for being tuned on this conversation And uh, and I hope to see you again michael and everybody else for more stories
[00:36:23] Michael Pickard: Thanks again.
[00:36:24] Marco Ciappelli: Thank you everybody. ...