Let’s talk about work. Not just jobs, but the way we structure work itself. Because let’s be honest—technology has completely changed how we collaborate, build careers, and define success. So why are we still clinging to outdated employment models?
Guest:
Guest: Sara Daw
👉 https://www.linkedin.com/in/saradaw
📌 Sara’s latest book, Strategy and Leadership as Service: How the Access Economy Meets the C-Suite
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society & Technology Podcast
Visit Marco's website 👉 https://www.marcociappelli.com
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Show Notes Blog:
Let’s talk about work. Not just jobs, but the way we structure work itself. Because let’s be honest—technology has completely changed how we collaborate, build careers, and define success. So why are we still clinging to outdated employment models?
In this episode of Redefining Society & Technology, I sit down with Sara Daw, author of Strategy and Leadership as a Service, to explore how the rise of fractional C-suite roles is challenging the traditional concept of employment.
For decades, work has been synonymous with full-time jobs, rigid schedules, and corporate hierarchies. But that model doesn’t fit today’s world. Instead, we’re seeing an unbundling of jobs, where businesses are accessing expertise on demand rather than keeping people on a payroll. Sara has been at the forefront of this shift, helping companies integrate fractional executives—CFOs, CMOs, CISOs—who work across multiple businesses rather than committing to just one.
But this isn’t just about executives. The gig economy isn’t limited to freelancers anymore. As technology enables remote collaboration, AI-driven automation, and decentralized work structures, we’re seeing a fundamental shift in how value is created. More and more professionals are choosing flexibility, autonomy, and variety over traditional employment, and businesses are learning how to build relationships without the security blanket of long-term contracts.
And here’s the key question: Is this shift making work better, or just more fragmented?
Technology has made this model possible, but psychology plays a huge role, too. Sara’s research dives into psychological ownership—the idea that people can feel deeply connected to an organization, even without a formal employment contract. It’s about trust, autonomy, and the sense of belonging we create outside of traditional job structures.
So where does this all lead? Will companies fully embrace this model, or will they cling to the office-first, full-time mentality? And what happens when Gen Z—who grew up in a fully digital world—reshapes the workforce even further?
Let’s rethink employment, leadership, and what it truly means to work in the digital age. Join me in this conversation with Sara Daw.
📌 Sara’s latest book, Strategy and Leadership as Service: How the Access Economy Meets the C-Suite, is a practical alternative vision of the future of work that is being adopted by businesses globally. Sara’s research focuses on what holds relationships together for the long-term in the absence of traditional employment contracts. Her work has been featured in The Sunday Times, Global Finance, Forbes and more outlets.
📌 Keywords: future of work, fractional employment, gig economy, leadership, digital transformation, workforce evolution, remote work, C-suite strategy, employment disruption, technology & society
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Marco Ciappelli: [00:00:00] Here we go. Welcome to another episode of Redefining Society and Technology podcast, it's always been connected with technology. I'm fascinated by it. I I talk about cyber security quite a bit with my partner Sean Martin on ITSP magazine.
But my background is sociology of communication. So anything that is connected with society and tech, um, I'm all about it. And there is no lack of topics to talk about. If we can talk about, uh, smart cities, cars, uh, healthcare. Um, and lately, of course, we have changed a lot of things because of technology.
One of those is. It's the way we work. I mean, look at this. Um, if you're watching the video, I'm With someone on the other side of, uh, the Atlantic Ocean, I was not too long ago, and, uh, we're here having a conversation and we're actually going to talk about the future or the present actually [00:01:00] already of, uh, of work and, uh, we're going to do that with Sarah Daw, uh, all the way from the UK and she's going to tell us a little bit about herself and why she wrote the book that she wrote and that we're going to talk about.
Sarah, welcome to the show.
Sara Daw: Thanks very much, Marco. So yes, I'm Sara Daw. I'm, uh, the Group CEO of the CFO center group, the Liberty group, uh, and, uh, very interested in the future of work. Our business provides fractional C suite professionals to, uh, growing SMEs and larger organizations.
And it's a different way. of working that challenges the employment model. I'm very interested in that and also, um, also studying and researching this area more fully.
Marco Ciappelli: Good. We, we need to, we need to understand what's going on. As I, as I often joke, do we use [00:02:00] technology to improve our life, our experience, our, the way humanity works and the way we interact with people, or are we just sucked in by what I like to call blinking lights and funny noises? And, uh, and we just follow what is possible.
So doing some research, understanding the psychology and how things have been changing, I think, I think is very important. And, and, uh, yeah, how did you get, uh, passionate about, about this? What's, uh, what, what's the background and the reason why, uh, you started working in this field?
Sara Daw: Yeah, so it, it, it goes back, um, over 20 years now and actually it was from necessity. So, uh, I had, um, I'd left corporate and done an MBA and then was thinking about my next move back into the working environment. They just got married and I was having a family and I couldn't see myself. Um, [00:03:00] holding down a really high powered corporate role and being there for my Children.
And yet I couldn't also see a job that enabled me to do that. So at the time It was just the concept of a part time or fractional CFO was just beginning to arrive in the world. And I, and I was a CFO, I'd done that role. And I thought, you know, I can do this. So, um, set, set myself up. Actually, after talking to, um, someone who had a portfolio of non exec roles, I thought, actually, I could work with a portfolio of SMEs.
They don't need me full time. They don't want my skillset full time. They can't afford it full time, but they do need it. So I could work with. three, four, five of them, however many days I wanted to work. And I could also spend perhaps some of my week [00:04:00] with my children and bring, bring them up and be close to them.
And I could work locally, um, with these, with these businesses. So that, so that's how it started. Um, I connected, um, with my business partner and he, he was already doing it and the founded, um, the business. I joined up and, and off we went. So it was, it was disillusionment. With corporate life and the fact that I wanted flexibility, variety, control over my life, agency.
Um, and I couldn't see how I could do that in an employed environment.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, many times, uh, good things come from necessity, right? It makes you think.
Sara Daw: Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli: So my experience for the longest time has been to work in advertising and branding. And I feel like when you do that, you're always Kind of part time you're kind of fractional because you work with a lot of different companies.
You're a consultant. So Let's get into we didn't used to call it [00:05:00] fractional and now even in in cyber security There is fractional CISOs fractional CMOs and and all of that. So Can you help us, uh, and the audience maybe understand and the definition of that, especially because you focus on C level. So it's, it's not a part time as, you know, any, any job, but actually being a, a C suite level of part time.
So let, let's, help me to define that.
Sara Daw: Yeah. So, I mean, we, we actually coined the phrase part time here in the UK. Um, when we first started, actually, um, most of the people that worked with us at that point, didn't really like that terminology because it implied that they
Marco Ciappelli: Right. Why did you change it?
Sara Daw: Yeah. Um, and the fractional word, I think, sums up quite nicely in terms of it hasn't got those connotations of of not being committed, and sometimes part time has that, that connection.
Um, so [00:06:00] fractional, part time, whatever you want to call it, portfolio. Um, what it means is that instead of working for one business and, um, being fully, uh, and gainfully committed to just that one organization, we, uh, we work with a. a range of clients, a range of businesses, and it might be a day a week for one, two days a month for another, a day a month for someone else.
So we might work full time, we might work four days, three days, it doesn't really matter. That's up to the individual and that brings the flexibility and the variety that they have. Yet the key thing is making sure that every business we work with is, is dedicated and gets the amount of time that they need.
Um, and it helps to build some flexibility and some sort of gaps into the schedule so that, so that we can dial our time up and down. Um, and the key thing is that it's sort of the fragmentation of jobs, if you like. So what I'm seeing is the [00:07:00] unbundling of jobs and the fragmentation of them into activities, um, and work.
And by the unbundling happening, it means that Um, we can sort of sort through the requirements of the job and fractional C suite individuals can pick up the elements of the roles that suit them and deliver value to the, to the clients and the businesses they work with. Um, and it doesn't have to be packaged up in a full time role anymore.
It also means you get the right skills at the right level for the right jobs because sometimes you find in employment that you end up doing all sorts of things in your job just because you are full time and actually it could be some of those roles and jobs could be served by, you know, different individuals and different skill sets at different levels.
So it's quite an efficient way of doing things but it's very different to packaged up full time roles.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I agree. The part [00:08:00] time is like, uh, you're part time, so you don't really work here, right? Like, no, no, no, no. I work here just part time. The fractional, I feel I agree. It's more of I'm dedicated to a specific task, a specific role, and I'm now going to stay here. And as we used to say in the past, you need to just warm up the chair just because I have to sit here for that amount of time.
Now, let's dive into the core of what I do. What this podcast really is about, which is how technology is helping to change society and the other way around. So the role, are we able to do these now days more effectively because of technology? I think I know the answer, but maybe you want to dive deeper into it.
And um, and what do you think has been really, uh, there have been like a moment, uh, like a tipping point [00:09:00] where people, company started to accept something like this, um, instead of just like, uh, if you're not here, I don't know what you're doing. I don't know if you really are working.
Sara Daw: Yeah, it's a really, it's a really good point. So, I mean, If I, if I take us through the big changing point, I mean, we've been doing this for, for over 20, for 25 years, and we were actually often the odd one out, as you point out, because we weren't present in the office. alongside the full time employees.
We're the, we're the individuals that were coming in and out. However, um, obviously COVID came along, uh, I was bound to say that, and that normalized this way of working. Obviously technology played a huge part here because we all had to, um, suddenly, you know, work from home, switch on our computers, learn how to do remote, um, video conferencing.
Now we were doing this before [00:10:00] COVID. Um, so actually nothing changed for some of us, but it's almost like the world caught up. Um, and what's interesting is that the business owners that we work with, um, began to realize through, um, experience that you didn't have to be sat next to each other in an office to deliver value. Because no one was doing that then. And, and actually, what was really interesting was that the, um, the relationships actually, um, probably got a lot deeper during COVID. Even though we were further away physically. So the technology filled that gap and enabled us to feel much closer to each other because it was the only, you know, the only way that we could communicate often that, uh, in that environment.
And we, the, the lines blurred as well, um, quite a lot around how the cadence of the work. So before it would be complete days, [00:11:00] perhaps visiting an office. And, and then through the pandemic and since then, it's the lines of blood and the packaging of interaction of time has, um, fragmented into smaller parcels, if you like.
And we spend parts of days and hours at a time working with various different clients. Through using the technology and there's a, there's a bigger feeling of closeness because there's more frequent interaction. So when we surveyed, uh, the businesses that we work with, they're, they're telling us that they felt closer to us.
Um, interestingly, post pandemic than, than before.
Marco Ciappelli: That's interesting. So I, one of the point I make all the time is the, the line between real world and virtual world, it doesn't really exist anymore. I mean, there is the analog, there is the digital, but we We all live, unless you live in the woods somewhere, um, you, you [00:12:00] interact with both. And honestly, as you say, you know, uh, when I talk to people, uh, and I've been doing this for a long time, recording a podcast, I, I, I established a relationship with them.
And I mean, you, you get to know each other, either you're sipping that coffee on a table at a coffee shop or in an office or in a meeting room, or you're doing it. Remotely, I mean, I still feel like, you know, we're still being human. I know for a lot of people is a stretch but you talked about kind of Um, if I remember well, like reowning your, your, your work again, like having a sense of explain that like, like, because you're not sharing the environment, because you are in control of what you do, you kind of like take back a certain level of ownership.
Sara Daw: Yes. So, so the key thing in my research, which I, [00:13:00] which I talk about in my book, strategy and leadership of service, this way of working is that we've moved from the payroll to an access role. So we're not employed. But, uh, the businesses that we work with access our services and pay, pay as they go, which is sort of like, uh, the way to describe it that I find is quite useful is describing it as we're the Spotify of the C suite.
So what I realized in my research was that Because I wanted to know why our business model worked. Why do we have long term relationships with businesses in the absence of employment contracts? What else is holding these relationships together? So I started looking at other access economy models where you access services rather than owning them.
And, um, so the likes of the disruptive business models of Uber, of Netflix, of Spotify, those businesses, and what I realized was that a number of those businesses through, um, my research was that [00:14:00] they have something called psychological ownership, some of them baked into their models. If you take Spotify, even though we don't own the music, so we haven't got this, it's not CDs set on bookshelves anymore.
I mean, obviously some of us still do that, but um, that isn't that model, taking up space, um, in our homes. Instead, We are accessing, um, vast quantities of music that we know other people are listening to at the same time. We're logging on, we're scrolling our music. And because there's things like control of what music you listen to, how you put your playlist together, all that sort of thing, that breeds, um, ownership, feelings of ownership, even though We know logically we don't own that music.
We're just accessing it. So that was what I wanted to look into in, uh, my business was to just look at the relationships we had, uh, [00:15:00] between the C suite individuals and the firms they work with to see. If the firms felt like and the individuals felt like they were together and belonging to each other, even though they didn't have an employment contract.
And that's and that's what I found was that there are certain things that make up psychological ownership. And if you can bake those into the model, it's things like intimacy. It's things like doing things together and co creating. It's having control. And when I say control of each other, what I mean is we're accessible, available, and approachable for each other.
Feeling safe psychologically. If you can bake those things into the relationship, then it sort of doesn't matter that you, um, that there's no employment contract because the relationship's strong anyway. Um, and, and we'll be, we'll thrive for the long term. But you've got to work on it all the time. But that, that's what I looked into.
Marco Ciappelli: Do you feel like there are changes though, that they, [00:16:00] this is going to be a little bit more philosophical, but follow me there. So I just published a few weeks ago, a few days ago, actually a conversation with Leslie Shannon. She's a head of Nokia developing and scouting for the cool new thing. She has the best job in the world.
I mean, really, she's really fun. She wrote a couple of books. Uh, one is about being native, native digital, like native digital people that are born at the time and they never even, you know, know what the rotary phone is and they wouldn't even know how to use it apparently, but they're familiar with smartphone.
They couldn't even think about a time where smartphone were no there, social media and all of this. And she had an entire approach on how their entire brain, their business model, think different because they're able to think [00:17:00] abstract in the digital world, which is also the real world, right? So is there a generational push to make all of this work remotely more acceptable or even more than acceptable, but actually better?
Sara Daw: I think it's I think it's really interesting to look at the generational changes like you've just illustrated there with the adoption of of phone technology. So if I, if I take that through to the sort of working environment, um, what I think is quite interesting is the Generation Z's coming through right now are, um, more used to using technology and to to communicate and to work.
So if I take my children, for example, they like messaging rather than picking the phone up, [00:18:00] uh, to talk to each other or to talk to someone else. And I think if you, they're also adopting gig working. Uh, the access economy, um, as a, um, as a default, perhaps a bit more than than we ever did. So the, for my generation, generation X, um, we've gone to corporate, we've done the full time thing, we've said no to that, and we've come into the gig economy at a later stage.
I'm seeing the younger generations just as you, you just alluded to taking it up from the get go. Now this is interesting because the remoteness, I think they are comfortable doing the remoteness and actually need to be almost, it's the reverse to my generation. They need to be encouraged to build the relationships outside of technology as well as with technology.
So it's an and not an or. Um, because there are definitely, I feel, [00:19:00] advantages of seeing the holistic, um, the relationship in a holistic sense, not just through, um, a Zoom call, et cetera. Um, and I also think that, um, they also, They also do need to, um, to learn from each other and to learn from others. And how are they going to do that if they do everything so remotely?
And how are they also going to do it if they don't join corporate? Because the other trend I'm seeing is that sometimes shunning the corporate world from it, there's a distrust there. And actually they'd rather sort of do gigging. Um, and portfolio work all the way through, but how are they gonna learn if they don't have that corporate experience?
And this is where I think mentoring needs to come in. I think, I think we need to adopt technology, um, to help us remotely and in person to, and I also think, um, There needs to be a role of, [00:20:00] of mentoring the new generations through because otherwise they're not going to be able to learn the skills to then be able to, you know, add the value at a higher level.
So I think that's, and I don't have all the answers to how they're going to do that, but I, those are some of the challenges that I see in the future of work.
Marco Ciappelli: We never have all the answers in this conversation. If we, if we had the answers, we wouldn't be having this conversation anyway. Um, I wanna ask you one more thing and then, and then I want to put the, the, the futurist hats on and have some fun. Uh, imagine what the future will be. Um, the C level. So you, you talk about this, this is a, your research applies to, to the C level.
Does. It's exclusively related to them or what are the vertical or the industry or the type of jobs that eventually could then trickle down to Those that are not in the C [00:21:00] level position and why is it I'm gonna say easier with their quotes for those listening I'm doing their quote easier for somebody in the management position to actually adopt this kind of work
Sara Daw: Yes, that's a really good question. So I see it. I talk about the C level end of the gig economy being the privileged end, if you like. So they're doing it out of choice, freedom of choice, as opposed to necessity. They're searching autonomy, independence, agency, all that sort of stuff. But they also want to belong, which is why organizations like, you know, like mine exist because we're, we're, we're then a community.
But, you know, you can find your own community, you know, informally as well, but we still want to be human beings and belong. But why do they do it as opposed to the younger generations? And I do feel that lower levels can do it as well. One of the reasons is that to get going. Because this is [00:22:00] still quite new way of working.
To get going, you know, you start off with no business. And you've got to support yourself through, um, a period where you're investing to learn the skills to find, to win, and to keep clients to work with. And you need a financial runway to do that. Uh, and what you often find is that the, the lower level management layers, you know, perhaps they're going, you know, they've got more dependents, their kids are still at home, if they've got kids, they've got young kids, um, they haven't got so much resources behind them.
And so it takes a bigger job for them to, you know, really invest. To, um, learn the skills and to, and to, um, build their, um, this way of working. I am seeing it happen. It's not, it's not that it's not happening, but I think it's easier when you've already got an established career. You've done the corporate role, you, and you've got some resources behind you, and you can, you, you can [00:23:00] afford.
To change careers. But however, what I am seeing going forward is, you know, if we're going to be living to 100 on average, we're going to be working for 80 odd years, we're going to have multi careers. There's no doubt about it. And I think there's going to be periods where we're stepping back and perhaps Partners or family members will support us while we invest to do, um, something, you know, to, to invest, to make a change.
And I think there'll be, you know, partners and couples that, you know, to and fro through that and support each other and sort of contract with each other to design their lives so that they can pivot, um, and have, you know, three or four, four or five careers. Um, and I, I, I think that's going to happen, uh, as we go forward.
Marco Ciappelli: So you see it more as an investment for the employee than the employer, meaning, can you just join a company [00:24:00] to say, Hey, you know what, um, we work from home, we, we want fractional as much as we can. Here's all the tool, here's our training for you to do that. I mean, the way you present it is more. On, on the, on the employee's shoulder.
But do you, do you feel like, cause I see headline now. They're like, everybody goes back to work at Amazon. I'm like, uh, okay. I think you're kind of going the wrong direction, but it might be me. But there is also that push that I find the weird, but I mean, I'm sure they're doing, they have their own reason, but is there a future where maybe the company is?
The company, the companies are ready to embrace and train and support this new kind of workforce.
Sara Daw: I would really hope that organizations will be comfortable with hybrid, [00:25:00] you know, remote working. I mean, I'm, I'm all for that because I, I feel then you're, you're giving the agency to the individuals to craft their jobs in the way That they know best to do it and obviously with vice and that gives you fulfillment and meaning in our work.
So I would hope that that would continue rather than be mandated back into the office as we're seeing a few organizations do now. In terms of. the fractional world where you're self employed and independent and working for a range of businesses. I, I believe that, that, you know, if we're really going forward in time, what I'm seeing at the moment is that, um, even the corporates say are, um, they need to innovate for the future of work.
There's no doubt about it. The, the, um, individuals that have, The cutting edge, leading edge skills, [00:26:00] um, that those corporates need to, you know, meet the global challenges that are coming at them are most often self employed, the digital nomads, the remote workers doing, you know, and they're getting super exposed to all the, um, tech and issues. in a, in a wide variety of ways that corporates could only dream of having internally from their employee base. So the corporates need to engage with these individuals, but these individuals do not want to be employed because they want to sit on their, you know, beaches somewhere, you know, in an environment, in a nice sunny location, um, in a virtual world, uh, collaborating with peers or doing the same thing and learning all these new skills.
So I really see That a challenge going forward is for these bigger organizations to learn how to contract with these freelancers. [00:27:00] Um, how are they going to contract with them? Because what they're worried about is security. Um, are these people going to leave them in the lurch? Are they going to go off to a more exciting project?
And how do you balance off the fact that you've got these freelancers who can pretty much do what they want? Because they're delivering the bacon around the, um, around the, the, the content of the work compared to the employees who are, who are the stable base, the loyal base, uh, but don't have that innovation mindset and skillset, um, but they're employed.
So you've got these, you've got a blended workforce that these corporates have to manage. I think that's a huge issue going forward. And, and, uh, and part of the solution, I think, and I. at the moment will be firstly, you've got to really understand how to engage with these two people, two sets of people and how they work together.
And secondly, that there could be popping up more businesses that are more like the [00:28:00] organization. That, that I represent, which is more of an organizer of freelancers. So, so, uh, an intermediary, if you like, that will look after the individual and make sure they're vetted, the right person. They're not going to leave the corporate in the lurch.
All the corporates have got to create that in, that, that, um, that skill set internally to manage those freelancers. So those are the sorts of things that,
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and my head is going because then I think that whatever model works for the C level, it could eventually, with technology coming through, work for other level as well. And I'm thinking, like in my head, I see remote controlled robotics and AI where the supervisor, instead of being present, is just wearing goggles and being wherever in the world they want to be.
So with that. Let's have fun for five minutes and, and, and let's talk about what you, you could envision. So I just throw in [00:29:00] there augmented reality goggles. And when, when Zuckerberg decided to change Facebook into meta, I was envisioning a metaverse that we don't hear about anymore, but it's still there where people would just be having meeting in, in that environment.
And then it's like, well, you know, is it really going to be like that? But the point is the future is going to come no matter. Either you want it or not, it's going to come. I mean, you said Generation X. I'm a Generation X. I was excited about the Walkman. When I was a kid, so imagine putting on a really cool virtual reality goggle and so point is, you know, everything is new when it's new and it's old when it's old, but The bottom line is how how do you envision?
I don't know whatever years from now the future of work and are we Are you on the side of those that think that we're just going to become alienated by [00:30:00] everything and, and, and mis touch with reality, or is this going to be a different kind of reality and we're just going to change society and still be human, just a little bit different?
You can go wherever you want with
Sara Daw: yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm on the side of, of humans wanting connection. with each other. So I'm, I'm, I'm in an and position, I think. Um, I feel, of course, we're going to see fragmentation of jobs, which is going to be some of, and then the tasks that make up those jobs are going to be done by some of it by humans and some of it by automation.
And, and that partnership and that augmentation of doing it together. Um, so I, I definitely see that. And I think it's going, and I also think things are going to be done more at the point of sale. So, you know, we're going to have things happening more, um, just in time, um, at the. At the point at [00:31:00] which the customer wants to buy so it can be incredibly personalized and um, and customized to, I think we're going to see more and more of that because of the use of technology and, and the partnership with, with humans.
But I am, but I am still very much in the place of however we, we partner and work with machines. I feel as humans, we are still going to want some human connection between each other. And so somehow we need to fulfill our sense of, um, belonging and intimacy and safety. Um, and so, but that may not necessarily come from the traditional, it won't come from the traditional way of, of going into offices and doing work.
It's gonna, I think it's going to be fulfilled in many other different ways, maybe even communities outside of work, but by [00:32:00] task or by discipline. Um, so I do see it being as much more sort of dispersed and not, we're not going to be so connected into. the community of our work. I think there'll be many communities that we will be part of, that we will draw, um, relationships from, and everything will be much more dispersed and fragmented.
But at the end of the day, think we want that human connection. And I don't know
Marco Ciappelli: love it.
Sara Daw: that's going to come. And if
Marco Ciappelli: that you put the option and you highlighted the fact that maybe it's not just one dimension. It's not, you know, The dimension of somebody getting a job and when he's after college or after high school or whatever it is and spending the entire life in that environment where that become your world.
And I think you're opening [00:33:00] the door to a more, to me, exciting opportunity to change things, to live with different community and fulfill maybe that community need and interrelationship need outside of the work environment, which I think will be a really cool thing. Me, personally. Other may not.
Sara Daw: you, if you think about it, if we're going to have multi stage careers, so the old way is education, employment, retirement. If we're now going to have that much more blurred and, um, not in a, not linear like that anymore, but Um, you know, periods of employment, periods of self employment, periods of learning, um, which we dotted throughout a career.
You, you're, we're going to have scenarios where you're going to have older individuals, um, learning brand new things with, with youngsters. And I think there's a beauty in [00:34:00] that because we're going to have We're going to have that mix of experience, which I think brings a real richness to learning and perspectives.
And, you know, that's just one dimension. I'm looking at it in terms of age, but I think that's another beauty of everything being mixed up, if you like, and losing this sort of linear, um, you know, set way of doing things.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I think it's happening in education as well. I had a few conversation about, about that, uh, big conversation. I mean, obviously work is, it's, it's a huge part of our life, our society. I mean, it's, uh, it's very important to look at. these and I, I thank you for kind of opening this conversation a little bit outside of the sea level.
So thank you for following me into, into the future and a little bit of thinking and, and as I'd like to say, If uh, if [00:35:00] people have more questions than answers when we get to the end of an episode Uh, I think I did my job and I think you did your job right, right because it's important to question everything and maybe Um, just because we've always done it that way.
It doesn't mean we have to That's that's a big
Sara Daw: Yeah,
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, so, uh sarah, uh, thank you for stopping by for everybody listening your book strategy and leadership as a service Um will be linked here in the notes We'll connect, I'll share on social media and, uh, we'll stay in touch and for everybody interested in learning more about what you do, your book and your, and all your expertise and knowledge, uh, they can get in touch with you.
So, thank you very much.
Sara Daw: Brilliant. Thanks very much. Really enjoyed being here.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, really enjoy. I hope everybody enjoys. Subscribe, share, [00:36:00] and keep thinking. That's, that's, that's the most important thing, honestly. Take care, everybody.